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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Who was BU, me driving or man on horse?

399 replies

EsmeraldaEllaBella · 20/03/2016 18:42

Sorry for another car thread! Name changed recently but am a regular poster

So today I was driving in the countryside, road is wide enough for 2 cars, 60mph road, very straight. There were 3 people in a line on horses coming towards me on the opposite side of the road. I was going about 40mph but slowed to 30mph when I saw them. The man on the front horse started waving his arms and looked really angry saying slow down slow down! Wtf? Angry horse people around here piss me off so much. Was I BU?!

OP posts:
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6
tomatoIzzy · 21/03/2016 13:41

its head and go a bit not go on a bit

hollinhurst84 · 21/03/2016 13:54

The pic I posted further up thread is a decent speed/width
Recommends 15mph and 2m gap

carabos · 21/03/2016 14:07

herecomethepotatoes there is nothing more dangerous on the road than a motor vehicle, so by your logic, it is those who should be removed. If you think you are fully in control if a car at 60mph in all circumstances then you're deluded. Nobody is saying that all horses always behave unpredictably on the road. What we are saying is that they are flight creatures who make their own decisions and are strong enough to impose those decisions on their rider when frightened.

Almost all of the time they behave perfectly well on the roads and almost all owners of horses that are not reliable in traffic don't ride on the road. However, there will always be an element of unpredictability which can be minimised if we all work together and respect that roads are for everyone. It really doesn't matter if you are held up for a while, it isn't as long as you might think and it isn't every time you get in your car. I repeat what I said upthread - you'll be a lot lot later if you kill someone.

Gabilan · 21/03/2016 14:13

horses are always unpredictable, can#t be educated nor can be held responsible

They are predictable. They are flight animals and are preyed upon. Therefore if they sense danger they will try to move away from it as quickly as possible. Their eyesight allows them to sense movement very quickly but is not so good for sharp focus. These things combined mean they will flee from movement, unless schooled otherwise. Which brings me to my next point. Horses can be educated. They spend a considerable amount of time in schools, being schooled. Mine has been taught some basic dressage. A friend of mine teaches hers to give hugs and to lie down to make mounting easier. They can be taught all manner of things. People spend hours getting their horses to do things like walk over tarpaulins which is great if you can find handy horse comps for adults

They can't be held responsible, no. However, their riders can. I am responsible for considering other road users. So I don't take my horse out during rush hour when people will be in a hurry or on bin collection day. I avoid major roads and I avoid situations I think the two of us will not cope with. I have frequent lessons, check his tack, insure him and work on any problems to make him safer on the road. If you slow to 15mph and give him 2m space, he is not going to land on your bonnet. It's give and take. I'll school him, you take care around him.

herecomethepotatoes · 21/03/2016 14:17

please, please re-read my post (or did you get mine confused with another's). I always crawl past horses and give plenty of room. I've said so numerous times. I have ridden horses. My mother had one and I'm a keen cyclist so understand the need for shared roads and behaving / driving responsibly.

My point is (again), that minimising risks isn't good enough. You say horses can "make their own decisions and are strong enough to impose them on the rider". You failed to say "and other innocent bystanders" which is why they shouldn't be allowed. The element of unpredictability means that you (as the person taking them on the road) are gambling with others' lives. What gives you the right to do so?

horseyperson · 21/03/2016 14:26

my god there are some attitudes on here.
unfortunately for some of you we are allowed to ride on roads, for those of you that don t understand this, we cant just ride into any field wherever we like over crops and such like, and bridle ways are few and far between in my neck of the woods. We have no choice, i manage quite nicely avoiding main roads.
I have third party insurance. As a driver i don t find it too big an ask to slow down for anyone regardless of wether or not i agree with their prescence on the road.
The issue is that if you go flying past a horse there is a lot more chance of it spooking and causing and accident than if you take a few moments out , slow down and keep well out its way.
As a rider, I exagerate my thankyous so the driver knows i appreciate their patience, and i feel frustrated when driving when i go out of my way to slow down and stop and they don t evan acknowledge me...buts thats life there are just as many tossers on horses as there are in cars.

carabos · 21/03/2016 14:30

Erm, the law, the Highway Code give me the right to take my horse on the road potatoes. Every time you get in a car you are gambling with your own life and the lives of others. More people die as a result of road accidents in non built-up areas than anywhere else. Vulnerable user groups - not people in cars - are disproportionately represented with almost all of these being injured by cars and there are dozens of serious injuries caused every year.

Are you seriously suggesting that horse riding on the road should be banned? Where do you think riding should take place and how do you think riders should get themselves and their horses to this safe place?

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 21/03/2016 14:31

I don't agree that horses should be off the road, for the safety of other road users. That is mad.

Cars are driven by people, people are fallible - even good drivers can have accidents. People can be distracted,make bad decisions, not see something, blinded by the sun, just make a mistake. Thousands of accidents happen because of human error every year - you might as well say 'humans are fallible, they shouldn't be driving 3T hunks of metal around on roads - for everyone's safety".

SoupDragon · 21/03/2016 15:13

Johnny Morris doing a walrus impression.

I loved Johnny Morris :)

StillYummy · 21/03/2016 15:45

People seem to think we enjoy ridding on the road! We don't, it is at best dull and at worse stressful and dangerous. If I never had to take a horse in the road again I would be very happy.

I have also noticed over the years when I ride in built up suburban London the traffic is a lot better at giving me space than in Oxfordshire or Scotland. So the whole towny thing isn't an excuse.

Gabilan · 21/03/2016 15:53

My point is (again), that minimising risks isn't good enough

But you can only ever minimise risks, you cannot eliminate them (unless you pull the same stunt as the auditors in Terry Pratchet's novels). You can design roads so that you reduce risks. You can also train people on and around the roads. But how are you going to eliminate risk?

What about small children playing near roads? Even in a garden they could kick a ball over a hedge causing someone to swerve. Wild animals such as deer? Escaped domestic animals (you can check fencing etc. etc. but can't stop the risk entirely). Fallen trees? Again, you can cut trees back from roads but you're not going to eliminate this entirely. If you're going to ban horses you can make very similar cases for banning other things. If you undertake a statistical analysis of the most risky things on and around the roads, there are other things right up there with horses or past them that you are also going to have to ban. What about farmers moving livestock? I really don't think they'd be impressed if you told them that to get to land 300 yards up the road they should box their cattle over instead of herding them up the road. Every day I see a local dairy farmer moving his milkers to his yard and back to his pasture along the road. What do you want him to do? (what I actually do is stroll along chatting to him. My horse is quite taken with cows for some reason and seems to think he's helping to herd them).

You cannot eliminate risk. You can take sensible precautions to lessen it but you have to watch that the solution is not worse than the problem. Think about the debates around compulsory cycle helmets - compulsion means fewer cyclists which overall lessens the health of the population more than forcing cyclists to wear helmets improves it. Likewise, my bet is that if you were to ban horses from roads you would have an enormous and detrimental effect on rural life. Really, a sensible risk assessment doesn't make it worth doing.

bimandbam · 21/03/2016 16:02

I doubt there are many if any deaths or serious injuries reported where a horse has injured anyone else but it's owner/rider. I think more people are killed by cows each year than horses.

But 1000's are killed each year by cars. Drivers, drivers of other vehicles and pedestrians.

Don't be too hasty at banning all things dangerous from the roads. Nothing is more dangerous than an out of control vehicle. Can you guarantee that you will never have a stroke or heart attack or some other health crisi at the wheel of your vehicle? Of course you can't.

NataliaOsipova · 21/03/2016 16:05

Gabilan that's an interesting post and you make some valid points - but (and this is in answer to the "ban all cars" comment as well) when you take a car on the road you need: a) to have passed the driving test or be supervised by someone who has, b) have valid insurance and c) be driving a car under 3 years old or one with a valid MOT certificate. Why? To minimise risks to other people. To ensure that if you need to perform an emergency stop your brakes are functional. To make sure your lights work so others can see you coming etc etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of these things apply to riders. As far as the law is concerned, I can never have had a riding lesson in my life and can take a seaside donkey for a ride down a busy road in the rush hour, without requiring any insurance. Maybe the same stringent requirements should apply to horses and riders as well.

ILeaveTheRoomForTwoMinutes · 21/03/2016 16:17

but (and this is in answer to the "ban all cars" comment as well) when you take a car on the road you need: a) to have passed the driving test or be supervised by someone who has, b) have valid insurance and c) be driving a car under 3 years old or one with a valid MOT certificate. Why? To minimise risks to other people

And yet even with all those precautions, people driving cars are still more likely to cause an accident, to other motorist, cyclists, pedestrians and horses.

Again it's not the horses and riders who are actually causing the problem.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 21/03/2016 16:24

Horses on the road will be insured Natalia, that's already been pointed out to you - but I'm not sure you could MOT them Grin

But from your posts here, I gather you're just one of drivers that gets annoyed when someone is in your way.

Gabilan · 21/03/2016 16:45

a) to have passed the driving test or be supervised by someone who has, b) have valid insurance and c) be driving a car under 3 years old or one with a valid MOT certificate. Why? To minimise risks to other people

Legislation governing road usage tends to focus on the groups most likely to cause damage either because the group itself is numerous and/ or because the form of transport is dangerous. Motor vehicles have high kinetic energy and there are many of them, which is why they are the focus of most legislation.

Horses are less commonly found on the roads which doesn't mean they are necessarily less of a risk when you do encounter them, but does mean you're less likely to encounter them in the first place. Also, they usually have lower kinetic energy. Yes, they can weigh around 500kg and can travel around 30mph but that's still significantly less energy than a car doing 50mph.

In terms of testing, I could encounter a driver who passed their test 40 years ago and is assumed to be competent because they've continued driving and haven't been caught doing something that warrants retraining. It's better than not having a test at all but does not eliminate risk. There is a riding and road safety test for riders which is voluntary.

In terms of insurance, anyone on a riding school horse will be insured as riding schools are legally compelled to have insurance. The vast majority of private riders will have cover either through an insurance policy or through membership of competitive bodies such as British Dressage (it gives you some idea of the possible risks involved that BD insure me for £20 million of damage on a membership of about £70 a year). it would be interesting to know if compulsion would increase the % of insured riders. My bet would be that there are more uninsured drivers on the road than riders full stop.

It doesn't make sense to enforce an MOT on horses. 5 stage vettings are valid on the day they're done and no longer than that. I could prove to you that I can stop my horse but that would be covered if you thought riders should be licensed, rather than assessing the horse per se.

Similar debates go on with cyclists. The long and the short of it is that the effort required to enforce these things is not worth it for the lessening of risk that might result. Most adult riders have a driving licence anyway. They know about roads and the Highway Code. In fact IME vulnerable road users know the HC far better than people who drive but don't cycle or ride horses. They're forced to in order to reduce risks to themselves.

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 21/03/2016 16:48

ExAstris the speed was apparently recorded on someone's GPS app they had on when the horse spooked. Granted I can't find the original article, but do remember reading

GPS is completely unreliable for things like this, and I do wish people wouldn't use it in this context. It only encourages people like potato to make ignorant statements about all these wild, dangerous horses on the road. A well trained horse should be reasonable reliable on the road and isn't all that likely to launch itself 2m across the road into a car at the sight of a crisp packet at all. A less well trained horse should be boxed in by a better trained animal (2-abreast) or kept off the road until a suitable wingman is available or more training is achieved.

That doesn't mean you should speed past, or fail to leave the 2m gap - quite the opposite, it means you should leave the 2m because speeding close to the horse is just stupid - but it does mean that the argument against horses on the road falls apart somewhat. You're probably more likely to kill your family having a tyre blow out on a motorway than having a horse spook and throw itself into your car while you were passing it sensibly.

For context: I ride on the roads a lot. I have no choice, if I want to exercise my animals. I have had many different types on the road - those who I pull in and allow people to pass in any tiny gap (because I can) and those who I stay out and trot on until it's safe for the driver to pass - I make that judgement because I know how the horse will react.

What gives me the right to take the risk of one of my schooled horses jumping out and murdering some poor sod in a car? Well other than the highway code, I'd love to know of anyone who doesn't take some unnecessary risk to the lives of others - an unnecessary journey in the car (or a necessary one when you're feeling rough/tired), a plane journey, owning a dog or indulging in just about any interaction with the rest of the human race...

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 21/03/2016 16:55

That said, I wouldn't put much stock in what an RRS instructor tells you. I have a massive problem with the instance of the BHS that a hand waved up and down means "YOU must slow down".

According to the HWC, this signal means "I intend to slow down" which isn't the same thing at all. It would be perfectly reasonable to update the HWC to reflect the second meaning, but until that happened, the BHS really shouldn't encourage riders to presume other road users will know what they mean.

www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/signals-to-other-road-users

Gabilan · 21/03/2016 17:05

Diseases my horse usually gets to be the wingman, like some kind of 650kg sensible mobile barrier. What makes me laugh is that off road and when out with another experienced horse he seems to like to take revenge for the amount of babysitting I make him do. He turns from Captain Sensible into Mr LalaLoopyPants.

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 21/03/2016 17:10

My main horse is the same, Gabilan. He played horseball for a while, so is used to be crashed into and not moving if he can, and is brilliant with traffic, so he's the logical choice. Off road, he thinks the pheasants and the fallen leaves are out to get him*!

*In an entirely controllable and hilarious fashion which I do not allow to impact on the lives of other countryside users, just in case any one willfully misinterprets that as him leaping on babies in prams on footpaths...

hollinhurst84 · 21/03/2016 17:33

I've been out on the road today and thought of this thread most of the way round! 95% of people were fab. Small percentage coming past at about 30mph (on a road that's wide enough for one car)
We had one incident. Horse was spooked by a builder dangling off scaffolding on opposite side of road (tbh so was I!)
Van behind me immediately stopped. Horse turned right to look at it and it's again a one car width road. Car driving towards me forced herself in between me and hedge, driving her car half into the hedge to get past while my horse is obviously terrified
Whole incident probably 50 seconds while we got past
Van driver thanked profusely and he muttered some expletives about the car driver as he went past!

Puppymouse · 21/03/2016 19:11

Diseases that's really interesting. My mare is ex polo x and you could ride her under an artic if there was room but logs poking out of hedges are the devil Grin

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 21/03/2016 19:26

Meanwhile, AIBU is cropping up on horse fora too... And they're all terribly appreciative of the vast majority of sensible responses.

www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?725376-Passing-horse-on-the-road-mumsnet

Puppy the logs are conspiring against you. Your mare knows this and is trying very hard to save you from their inevitable ambush.

Greyhorses · 21/03/2016 20:22

I personally hate riding on the road but sometimes have to to get somewhere, for example to meet friends, go to competitions or to get to bridle paths. The closest bridle path to me is only accessible via a country lane.
Luckily my horse is sensible but I have had people literally pass within touching distance and even he has reacted to that.

To those who want to ban horses, how are riders meant to get from A to B? Are they supposed to just ride around and around an arena forever Hmm

If you are going slow enough even if a horse does spook the damage will be minimal, it's speed that causes the problems.

BippityBoppityBullshit · 21/03/2016 21:41

I even turn my radio down when i pass horses Blush