To not understand how people can justify it

[ijustdontunderstand]

Okay, not a bun fight I just want to understand how those who vote Tory can think the cuts to disability benefits are OK.

This is NOT saying if you vote Tory you're a bad person, at all, I just want to understand. Will you vote them in again knowing?

Yes. DLA is really easy to claim fraudulently. It's not like you have to fill out a 50 page form and provide evidence from professionals to back up each point. ...

You should maybe do a bit more reading about this subject. (Not the Daily Mail)

Oh the misconceptions.

And yes I know DLA is changing to PIP.

But the whole point is people are trotting out the line that DLA is being changed to PIP and the system needs overhauled because of the large number of mythical fraudsters.

"2,380 people died between 2011 and 2014 shortly after being declared able to work" DWP figures - before they refused to give out information.

I vote Conservative. I disagree with the proposed disability cuts. I'm glad IDS has resigned in protest. I hope it pushes Osborne into finally revising this all. But- lets not pretend disability benefit fraud doesn't massively cost this country- 2014/15 fraud with disability living allowance cost £70 million and claimant error £90million. Needs to change, but not in such a drastic way.

Gone too far for my liking but change is needed. A lot of people erroneously claim disability benefits as a lifestyle choice.
0.07% including DWP mistakes. That's the governments own figure. That is not a lot of people.
However, 20% of people (Government estimate) having their benefit removed is a large figure. Please read up before chucking this sort of nonsense onto a thread, your opinion isn't a fact, Dadinator

Except it's inaccurate

I could have opinion that the world is flat. Except it isn't and I would be wrong.

The actual facts and statistics don't constitue a "ruthless ideology"

What a load of hot air.

Actual facts and statistics aren't always what they seem. So easy to manipulate and spin anything.

We believe we are right because of err the actual fraud figures which back up our view and not yours.

Feel free to provide some proper official counter evidence.

They are the government's own figures bleary

Life's too short to argue with people who will argue black is white. The facts are there. Have a nice day :)

I think left wing types come across as aggressive and hectoring because right wing types don't seem to accept the facts. I've seen the 0.7% of benefits being fraudulently claimed stat on this thread a billion times yet still people have the opinion that the welfare state is bloated because millions of people are taking the piss.

These are the government's own figures. It's not some leftie survey conducted by sixth formers for the statistics element of their maths A'level. Government figures prove that fraudulent claims are tiny.

That would be the Tory government. Their figures. The Tory party's own figures. Released by tories. Do you see the point I am making?

And yet everyone knows someone who says she is disabled yet still weeds her front garden and doesn't cry in the queue at the co-op, so fraud is rife.

It does move me to rage. Actual rage. Put down the daily mail and interrogate the facts.

It's also true that disability related benefits enable people (including carers) to work and pay taxes.

Cutting disability benefits won't stop benefit fraud any more than changing tax rates would cut tax fraud. You might as well cancel all trains to prevent fare evasion.

I don't believe fraud is rife. I also believe strongly that everyone should pay higher taxes if they earn over £60k a year.

But I absolutely despise Corbyn and couldn't vote for him.

If things don't improve, the next election may be the one where I don't vote at all

You may not like my opinion. But it is mine and as valid as your own
Opinion isn't fact.

The fact is the government saves money because so many people who are entitled to claim benefits don't.

If you stopped all benefit fraud but all eligible claimants claimed the country would be massively out of pocket.

As stated above more benefits go unclaimed than are claimed fraudulantly, even back in 2010 the figure was an eye watering 16bn unclaimed against about £1.2 bn claimed fraudulently (much of which is people working on the fiddle not disabled people).

I love the person who said: "Actual facts and statistics aren't always what they seem. So easy to manipulate and spin anything." What a laugh, because data proves your points wrong you find that as a way to defend it? Well why come on to a talkboard to discuss it if only to keep putting forward an erroneous argument that can be proved to be so?

As with the economy argument the Tories put forward is easy to prove wrong, as is the benefits points: " Many people claim benefits as a lifestyle choice." What an argument,

It wasn't people on benefits or teachers, or doctors, or the NHS, local councils or any of the other elements that are being hit at the miniute the plunged the country into the greatest crisis since 1929, it was the bankers and the financial services industry, the only ones that have not recieved any kind of great reform because of where the Conservatives vested interests lie.

You lap this stuff up, and fail even to see the truth when it is put to you, blame the poor for being poor, blame the sick of being sick, and a realtively small nefarious group for being so, yet allow the real culprits to go off scott free through your ignorance.

By doing this you alow the whole sale destruction of our public services, you are worse of for this, but allow it to occur for an extra few quid in your pocket and a false sense of security.

As someone said above, you can have an opinion but unless you back it with facts it doesn't make it right and therefore your opinion can be invalid.

As stated above more benefits go unclaimed than are claimed fraudulantly, even back in 2010 the figure was an eye watering 16bn unclaimed against about £1.2 bn claimed fraudulently (much of which is people working on the fiddle not disabled people).

I don't understand why this is important.

I've seen the 0.7% of benefits being fraudulently claimed stat on this thread a billion times yet still people have the opinion that the welfare state is bloated because millions of people are taking the piss.

Are those estimates on how many people cheat the system, or are those the number of people caught? Because, I imagine, it's fairly difficult to get caught.

there is another reason for saying the welfare state is bloated: not because there are cheats, but because our economy is structured so that too many people rely on benefits. Since 2000, HB has close to quadrupled for private tenants and almost doubled for social tenants. Benefits have become a lifestyle choice for something like 30% of renters in London because they collect HB.

So, even if you accept that there is little fraud, you can still take the stance the state is bloated. And the consequence of this is that we shamefully can't support people who are disabled and really need benefits or saddle young people who go to university with huge debt.

Obviously there are those who deserve help and can't work but there are many who could work and ease the huge burden on the country. It is not sustainable to keep paying out huge amounts of benefits.

Benefits have become a lifestyle choice for something like 30% of renters in London because they collect HB

HB has become a necessity because rents, along with house prices, have increased out of all proportion to wages in general and in London in particular. The continued sell off of social housing makes the situation worse.

That needs to change, but not by simply cutting benefits without addressing the causes. It's not benefit claimants who have pushed rents and house prices beyond the reach of an increasing number of people - including people who work fulltime - but they're the ones who'll suffer from a stick-with-no-carrot approach to cutting benefits. Where are they supposed to live?