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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand how people can justify it

667 replies

ijustdontunderstand · 14/03/2016 18:16

Okay, not a bun fight I just want to understand how those who vote Tory can think the cuts to disability benefits are OK.

This is NOT saying if you vote Tory you're a bad person, at all, I just want to understand. Will you vote them in again knowing?

OP posts:
JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 12:03

Shock doctrine.... I'll use that one in future. Wink

I only know one banker, and he's certainly not come near the experience of austerity. You could take away one of his houses, two of his cars, and half of his entire worldly possessions and he'd not feel the difference, TBH.

We're about to lose our son's Motability car, and have long been on the breadline even before the latest cuts. Obviously we need to feel austerity more. My husband's about to get the lovely 'living wage' which housing benefit will immediately deduct so we are not a penny better off like everyone else on it).

Meanwhile, MPs are still buying their duck castles and their massive subsidised lunches. They all need to be on minimum - sorry, 'living' wage. No expenses. Do their own admin. What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander (or duck).

magratsflyawayhair · 18/03/2016 12:10

I voted conservative last election as at the time I didn't feel the alternatives were better. Right now I'm bitterly regretting it despite living in a labour stronghold with a great labour MP. I feel guilt about it. I honestly didn't foresee the lengths that they are going to.

I'm currently trying to plan an email to Call Me Dave explaining that the reason he won was thanks to voters like me. Who saw him as an alternative to something lacklustre. But his wholesale destruction of education and health will see him lose everything that his party has gained. I know he won't are but I feel I have to say something to someone in his administration. Not trying would be even worse.

lurked101 · 18/03/2016 12:15

The wealthy have not felt austerity at all.

Trickle down economics does not work, and the well off are being subsidised by the poor not the other way around. The gini coefficient for the UK shows a massive amount of wealth being transferred from the ordinary income earners to the best off over the last 20 years.

Problem is that those who think they are better off voting tory don't see this, they get bought off with little tax cuts, a little bit more money in their pocket whilst the services they need, and benefit from, are cut.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist, the greatest one the Tories have pulled is convincing anyone who is not independently wealthy that they are better off under them. Poor deluded fools.

YoungGirlGrowingOld · 18/03/2016 12:36

Okay, so Corbyn talks to terrorists (as long as they are not Jewish) but would like to ban young Israeli sports teams. That seems sensible and coherent.

If you accept that trimming back the state and living within one's means is desirable (and I do), then Osborne is doing the right thing. The last election was fought by the Tories on an austerity platform so they have a mandate - although many would argue that the latest cuts go too far. The present government has borrowed a lot in order to maintain Labout spending commitments.

Looking at the latest budget in a clinical/detached way, he has taken the same approach as Brown and hosed tax advantages on 'natural' Tory voters. Just like Brown made more and more more people dependent on benefits in the form of tax credits to 'sell' his idea of a beneficent state and keep them voting Labour.

PageStillNotFound404 · 18/03/2016 12:37

Good on you for trying, magratsflyawayhair. We need more people like you to stand up and say no, this is not what I voted for, this is not in my name.

Owllady · 18/03/2016 12:46

So younggirl, how do you suggest my daughter and joffreys son 'live within their means'
They are amongst the most vulnerable in our society and are unable to perform any self care
My dd is 16 yo. She has been severely disabled since birth. She has physical disabilities, severe learning disabilities, neurological conditions, medical conditions. She attends an sld/pmld school and is one of the most complex children. Her condition hasn't got better, it's got worse. It's all documented with her many medical professionals, her social workers, the local authority, the dwp.
Her needs are so great I've had to give up work to care (we don't claim anything else before you get upset)

This morning she's been called for a pip assessment Hmm I really, really despair Confused

Owllady · 18/03/2016 12:48

She's not pretending to have a bad back for instance, she had severe scoliosis and received correction surgery last year. I don't think she's putting it on

PageStillNotFound404 · 18/03/2016 12:50

Owllady, much respect to you and your family. Good luck with the (ridiculous, wasteful, profligate and - as is proven by figures released yesterday - cost-ineffective) PIP assessment.

lurked101 · 18/03/2016 13:12

"if you accept that trimming back the state and living within one's means is desirable (and I do), then Osborne is doing the right thing. The last election was fought by the Tories on an austerity platform so they have a mandate - although many would argue that the latest cuts go too far."

Ok, the living within your means arguments takes a country's finances to be the same as a household's, it doesn't work like that and its a poor analogy used by the Tories to convince people who don't understand economics properly.

They said they "wouldn't cut" benefits or tax credits but they are going to, they didn't discuss their plans for schools, they have no mandate to do what they are doing, they campaigned on economic growth and accusing Labour of destroying the countries finances (again a fallacy).

Oh and btw living within ones means would mean that those that can should shoulder more of the burden, but they aren't and the debt is rising to pay for it, and the poor and vulnerable are suffering,

shovetheholly · 18/03/2016 13:34

I urge everyone inclined to make the 'live within your means, pay off your debts' argument about a state to read just the first chapter of David Graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years. It slays quite a few sacred cows about the moral confusion over this issue in 20 easy-to-read pages.

merrymouse · 18/03/2016 13:46

I'm not really sure what the government means when they talk about austerity as a policy. Generally 'austerity' is used to refer to the post war period. It's true that there was great poverty, however there were also very high taxes and high government spending.

Anyway, it now seems that disability cuts were just a 'suggestion'.

Owllady · 18/03/2016 13:51

No it isn't, the dwp and ids have said Nicky Morgan (who voted for the cuts to pip Hmm) is wrong and has her wires crossed

lurked101 · 18/03/2016 13:54

Ah the DWP, or the ministry of misery as it should be known, with Nosferatu as its leader.

merrymouse · 18/03/2016 13:57

I think we can conclude that the cuts were not just a suggestion, but there is now disagreement over whether and how far they should back track.

Permanentlyexhausted · 18/03/2016 14:02

I agree, Shovetheholly and you can read the whole of the first chapter for free right here.

Dawndonnaagain · 18/03/2016 14:05

Okay, so Corbyn talks to terrorists (as long as they are not Jewish) but would like to ban young Israeli sports teams. That seems sensible and coherent.
Relevance?
Oh, yeah, none, just a Tory ploy to make the opposition look a tad dodgy. yawn.

If you accept that trimming back the state and living within one's means is desirable (and I do), then Osborne is doing the right thing
Okay, living within one's means does involve ensuring that everybody has enough to live within said means. At present, the rich, who already had enough are being given more. The poor, the disenfranchised, the disabled, who did not have enough are having further monies removed. So, how does that tally?

lurked101 · 18/03/2016 14:13

Oh and the point about Corbyn and terrorists, fine he talks to terrorists but in order to try and get them to the table, to understand what has driven them to do this.

Remember Thatcher and Cameron have both referred to Mandela as a terrorist.

One man's freedom fighter and all that.

CauliflowerBalti · 18/03/2016 14:13

Okay, so Corbyn talks to terrorists (as long as they are not Jewish) but would like to ban young Israeli sports teams. That seems sensible and coherent.

For the love of actual fucking God... Jeremy Corbyn did not attend the Pro-Israel demonstrations held at the time. He never stated he was going to attend the demonstrations at that time, his name was never on any attendance lists at that time and the organisers publicly stated at that time that they had not heard from him.

This didn't stop the media reporting that he was attending. Don't let the truth get in the way of a good opportunity to position JC as a dangerous renegade radical.

CauliflowerBalti · 18/03/2016 14:14

Pro-Palestine. Sorry.

merrymouse · 18/03/2016 14:14

Again looking back to ww2 and post war austerity, when there really wasn't enough to go around, 'living within one's means' meant rationing, forced requisition of private property and very high taxes.

It appears to be one of those phrases that can have quite a flexible meaning.

CauliflowerBalti · 18/03/2016 14:20

And here is what some Jews - Israeli and otherwise - have to say on the claims that Corbyn is an anti-semite:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/20/jeremy-corbyn-and-antisemitism-claims

You know when someone tells you that a man who has very visibly spent his whole life campaigning for civil liberties and opposing racism is racist? GOOGLE IT BEFORE YOU LAP IT UP.

lurked101 · 18/03/2016 14:25

You can be anti Israeli occupation of the South Bank, as well as anti their human rights record against Palestinians without being anti Semite. Although lots of people choose to conflate the two.

LazyDaysAndTuesdays · 18/03/2016 14:27

You know when someone tells you that a man who has very visibly spent his whole life campaigning for civil liberties and opposing racism is racist? GOOGLE IT BEFORE YOU LAP IT UP.

He may not be. There is no denying that a few within the party members are. Hence being suspended and repelled after being readmitted after previous expulsions.

MAYBE GOOGLE IT BEFORE YOU DENY IT EXITS.

lurked101 · 18/03/2016 14:30

But Cauli, the posters on here only believe the stuff that confirms their prejudices not challenges them, its unfair to make them look at something critically because it would make them have to think.

LazyDaysAndTuesdays · 18/03/2016 14:34

But Cauli, the posters on here only believe the stuff that confirms their prejudices not challenges them, its unfair to make them look at something critically because it would make them have to think.

Some posters need to stop being PA and see that not everyone has to agree with them.