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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Leaving children alone....

83 replies

Flashbangandgone · 14/03/2016 15:15

AIBU for being thoroughly confused about what is 'legally' deemed to be reasonable for leaving a child alone. When a Dad is convicted of neglect for leaving his child alone for '5 minutes' in a car to get some calpol, is advised not to appeal by a barrister, then appeals anyway whereupon the judge quoshed the conviction by responding "5 minutes and this is supposed to be a crime?"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35803414

I'm personally on the side of the Dad and judge, but whatever my personal thoughts, it is appalling that there is such a lack of clarity on the law that this kind of thing can happen.

OP posts:

Lweji · 15/03/2016 12:25

five minutes while he went into a chemist to buy some children's paracetamol.
He said his daughter was "barely out of sight" but police were waiting at his car

I can't reconcile 5 min with the police already waiting for him, unless it was an incredible coincidence.
And how the father didn't notice the police were by the car.

tiggytape · 15/03/2016 12:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CauliflowerBalti · 15/03/2016 12:44

I've always left my boy in the car when paying for petrol. I've never seen anyone take their baby/toddler/child OUT when paying for petrol. Do people do that? And he stays in the car sometimes when I nip into a shop. He's 7.

There is a shop 2 minutes from our house. I wouldn't let him go as there's a big road on a nasty corner to cross. I've never been and left him in the house either. But if I think about it, I bet I could now. Maybe. Perhaps.

grannytomine · 15/03/2016 13:11

I am all for letting kids grow up, do things for themselves etc but I think 2 is too young to be left in a car alone. When my son was at playgroup one of the mums left a sleeping 3 year old in the car while she took her shopping into the house and put it away. The car was stolen by a joyrider who panicked when the little girl woke up crying. He abandoned her and the car in the middle of a main road. Thankfully she was securely strapped in or it could have been alot worse, think crying 3 year old wandering around a busy road. She never left her in the car again, better to wake them up and have a grumpy 3 year old than the alternative.

chelseabuns2013 · 15/03/2016 13:21

Being left in a car with a bag of crisps whilst mum n dad went boozing/eating a meal. Double whammy and by today's standards drink driving Daughters going to have to be on her own when she goes to secondary school in September I have to work to pay for the house close to her good school.

Sprink · 15/03/2016 13:28

I often left my three (aged 5, 4, and 3) in the car for a few minutes while getting milk or something after school pickup. Usually at the Tesco Express by the school.

One day I came out, opened the door, climbed in and saw four heads in the car. A schoolmate of my son's had been waiting for his mum and my son had opened the car door so the little boy could join them!

AppleSetsSail · 15/03/2016 13:28

I have never considered the legality of leaving my children unattended, only whether I think they'd cope well in an emergency.

Whether is a good idea to leave a 2 year old in a car for a few minutes to retrieve Calpol, I don't know - but there are certainly far greater crimes against children going undetected. A complete waste of time.

Arneb · 15/03/2016 13:42

Daughters going to have to be on her own when she goes to secondary school in September I have to work to pay for the house close to her good school.

It's currently looking likely I'll still be around the house at school start finish times - I still can't be around for eldest as younger two have to be dropped off and picked up.

Our closeness to secondary and the early end of day they have mean I'll still be waiting at school gates when she gets home so she'll have most of an hour by herself if not longer. As she is summer birthday she'll be 11 for the entire yr7 school year.

Few more years and next child will be going up as well so that will be two children in the house one under 12 and one 14. There is no childcare available above primary school age and I desperately want to get back to work for my own financial future and mental well being as well which would almost certainly make the time they are left longer.

Last place I left her 30 minutes sometime when picking up younger children, 7 min walk to school from house, from groups from year 4 onwards - other parents often with younger children were usually ones who were shocked - so much so I'd dodge the question as to where she was. Same with walking home and going to shops.

Now new location much busier road and much longer trek to school - it's a different situation so we are waiting for a bit till last few weeks of summer term to do similar. When I've left the house with only a few children once to shops across road so 20 min trip and once because their Dad was in house I've been stopped and interrogated as to where about of other children .

What worried me is that I' making judgements based on our situations and my knowledge about my children but people outside of that come along and second guess our decisions.

Arneb · 15/03/2016 13:44

My parents left us in cars to go to fish and chip shop and petrol - easier than getting three kids out and in again. We never encountered a situation where we came to any harm though I suppose there were/are rare risks.

Tywinlannister · 15/03/2016 13:48

I have a minor 'left in the car' horror story.

Aged 3, my DM left in me in the car waiting for her to do her shopping. As per usual she was AGES. I opened the window, called for help and a lady pulled me out and took me in to the shop down the road for sweets and a drink. About 10 mins later my DM returns, finds the car with the window open, child gone and starts screaming in the street. When I returned she was a wreck.

I wouldn't want that to be me, so I don't leave them for a minute.

coffeeisnectar · 15/03/2016 13:54

My oldest started walking to school on her own aged 8 but it was an easy route and it was extremely busy with other children. She was also a very sensible child.

My youngest is not so sensible and aged 10 has only just started going to school on her own now she's moved to middle school and can get there with limited road crossing. I've started giving her a little bit more freedom and she is allowed to go to a church club after school every Thursday for smoothies and cookies as long as she leaves at 4.30 to get home to get changed for swimming. So far, she's been fine and she's aware that I need to know where she is and she mustn't decide to do something else instead.

She is fine being left at home while we nip out for half an hour. We live in a very quiet street but know most of the neighbours and she will just read or go on her laptop.

It's very much a case of the parents making a decision based on their own child. My two are so very different and a blanket rule would effectively mean that one could be left while not mature enough or being forced to take a child thats sensible enough to be left.

Oliversmumsarmy · 15/03/2016 14:13

How would a law about leaving children unattended work if you send your children to boarding school.

sleeponeday · 15/03/2016 14:26

How would a law about leaving children unattended work if you send your children to boarding school.

Do you homeschool, then? Same rules apply, just to the full day. They have to comply with a massive degree of safeguarding and child protection oversight, too. Risk assessments up the wazoo just so they can pass ISIS and OFSTED assessments.

Overrunwithlego · 15/03/2016 14:37

Law in Scotland states that it is not illegal to leave your child/ren alone, however if something bad happens in your absence you will be prosecuted for neglect.
That's similar to the situation in England. Parents can choose what is appropriate and use their own judgement but have to be able to justify it if anything bad happens or if reported by anyone else.

I think there is an issue in presuming the alternative has no risk. I've left my 8 year old once, literally legged it to the shop and was back in 5 minutes. He remained on the sofa watching a film. I could have taken with me, crossing a road and surely exposing him to a higher level of risk. If something "bad" happened in either case it would be neglect in the first instance but not in the second (although I'd have taken the decision to expose him to more risk in the second scenario).

RabbitSaysWoof · 15/03/2016 14:37

I always leave my little boy to pay for things quickly, I would probably worry when he's older and doesn't have a three point harness seat, atm he can't knock hand break off/ open window. I wounder if I will be so relaxed when he can get himself out of the seat.

chelle87 · 15/03/2016 15:06

I popped into a shop the other day leaving the 18 month old sleeping in the car with her 8 yr old brother reading next to her and their dad. He then decided he was coming in too. Then we heard the horn. The baby had woken and was crying so my son had beeped the horn to get our attention.( he'd agonised over getting out or getting told off for climbing the seats) He's a very sensible young man and I know I could leave him if I needed to although I wouldn't unless it was an emergency. There should be guidelines but I don't think a blanket law will help.

Lweji · 15/03/2016 15:40

I always leave my little boy to pay for things quickly

I hope he carries enough money. Does he get a stipend?

Oliversmumsarmy · 15/03/2016 16:18

Yes I do home school. I also went to a boarding school where after school you were left to your own devices. 1 house mother to about 50 children in a very large house. We would go into town, just had to be back by 7pm. no parental supervision. I was asking how if they brought in a law how that would work.

how many people would schools have to employ to supervise all the children all the time.

sleeponeday · 15/03/2016 17:12

Ah, that explains it! I also boarded, back in the '80s, and it is light years different now. I wouldn't send mine to board tbh, because I don't think the emotional care can come close to that in any moderately happy family, but the care and supervision these days is rigorous. Has to be, to pass the legal requirements now, let alone insurance ones. Day schools are hugely different in health and safety terms as well, at least at the age where you would expect that. They don't even let the children at DS' primary leave as a group - they are individually handed over by their class teacher to each parent, one by one, at the classroom door, and that seems to be the norm at all schools around here.

sleeponeday · 15/03/2016 17:15

Though even in the '80s we had to go into town with a friend, signed in and signed out, you weren't allowed to go until you were 13, and I don't think we were allowed out that late either. Yours does sound rather laissez-faire if it allowed prep school aged kids out alone to roam the streets until 7 pm.

bundybear · 15/03/2016 17:44

Personally I have quite fond memories of being left in the car. I used to polish the mirrors and memorise the traffic signs in the road atlas... I spent an hour every afternoon outside my mum's work waiting for her to finish and I don't think my dad every took us out of the car if he could possibly avoid it.

We did have moments of hilarity/calamity though:

My needle-phobic dad popped into the doctors to collect prescription, ended up being advised to have a tetanus injection , passed out due to needle phobia but without alerting anyone to the children in the van. Me (aged 7) and brother (aged 2.5) spent a merry but hungry 2 hours in the back of van.

Another time my dad came out of the bank to find the van surrounded by firemen - the car parked next to us was leaking petrol. Me and my bro were refusing to leave the van (strict instructions from dad) so they were about to forcibly remove us...

No children were harmed. No one was arrested. Many apocryphal stories were amassed.

I only leave my kids in the car at the petrol station if I can't pay at the pump because my own risk assessment says that's safer than trailing 3 kids across a busy forecourt. They don't even get to read the road atlas in these days of sat nav - they'll never pass their driving theory tests

Girlwhowearsglasses · 15/03/2016 17:50

Age isn't a reliable factor anyway. I wouldn't leave DS1 alone- he's none, but his friend is left for an hour or so because he's very responsible.

It needs to be staged anyway - you wouldn't suddenly leave a child for the first time for the whole evening - ten minutes here and there at an appropriate age surely?

Janecc · 15/03/2016 18:19

My 7 nearly 8 yr old wants to be left. I won't. My friend sometimes leaves her 8 yr old for 30 mins, he's fine. I know my DD thinks she wants to be left but I think she would panic. Up to 3 months ago, she insisted I held her hand up to the door at school. She has suddenly got so much more confidence but to leave her alone I think is more of a fantasy than reality. And I don't see how she would deal with an unforeseen emergency. It has to be in a child basis as so many other posters have said. It's Ridiculous that the guy was prosecuted. I only ever leave DD in the car at petrol station (she's been confident enough for me to do this for almost a year). and once or twice at the chemist where I parked sideways on right outside the window so I could see her the whole time.

BillSykesDog · 15/03/2016 21:16

I'd like to see the guidance given far more clarity than as currently stands. I think at the moment it's extremely unfair on certain sections of society because it depends so much on how people's parenting is perceived and that has a lot to do with wealth and class.

For example, mentioning no names apparently if you're a wealthy professional it's fine to leave 3 children under 4 totally, unsupervised, out of sight and earshot in an unlocked flat for long periods while you are dining and boozing despite having ample available and affordable childcare options. Apparently as long as you have the cash you can do that and be a wonderful parent.

But if you're a care assistant and 14 year old looks after your 3 year old for half an hour because you can't leave work without being sacked and you have to, y'know, have a job to eat and pay your rent: then you're a criminal.

It's really not fair the way it's applied at the moment which is basically completely arbitrary.

Lweji · 15/03/2016 22:14

I have left ds in the car when I could see him.
The problem with the man was that he didn't see the car or even saw the police before he returned to the car. It means he couldn't have known how the very young child was.

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