Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4

Original poster

Leaving children alone....

83 replies

Flashbangandgone · 14/03/2016 15:15

AIBU for being thoroughly confused about what is 'legally' deemed to be reasonable for leaving a child alone. When a Dad is convicted of neglect for leaving his child alone for '5 minutes' in a car to get some calpol, is advised not to appeal by a barrister, then appeals anyway whereupon the judge quoshed the conviction by responding "5 minutes and this is supposed to be a crime?"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35803414

I'm personally on the side of the Dad and judge, but whatever my personal thoughts, it is appalling that there is such a lack of clarity on the law that this kind of thing can happen.

OP posts:

QueenLaBeefah · 14/03/2016 20:42

Never, ever accept a police caution.

Most would not result in a conviction but a lot of employers treat a caution the same way they would treat a conviction.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 14/03/2016 21:30

In reality just because it does not specify an age it does not mean it is not clear.

It is quite clear that you cannot legally leave a child unsupervised if it places them at risk.

The only time is becomes unclear is when you are talking about subjective risk as opposed to obvious ones

Original poster

Flashbangandgone · 14/03/2016 22:10

The only time is becomes unclear is when you are talking about subjective risk as opposed to obvious ones

But it's precisely that subjective 'grey area' where the problem lies.... Obviously Everyone would agree that leaving a toddler to play by a motorway is dangerous... But leaving a toddler strapped in a car when popping into a shop?... Not as clear cut.

OP posts:

Original poster

Flashbangandgone · 14/03/2016 22:13

Or to put it another way, you appear to saying it's clear when the risk is obvious, but unclear when it's not obvious....
Surely what you've posted is just a statement of the 'obvious'!

OP posts:

Earlyday · 14/03/2016 22:27

I used to walk to school by myself at age 5 - and my mum would send me to the shops to get a few small things at that age. I wouldn't let my own 6 yr old do that as he has no sense.

I used to babysit my 2 younger sisters and younger brother at age 8 while my dad dropped my mum to work - he'd be gone about an hour or more.

I used to work at the reception in my parents business age 9 and 10 while my dad popped out for various reasons.

I was going in to the city by myself at age 11 or 12 on the bus with my friend.

I have no problem leaving my six year old home for less than 5 mind while I run over to the nearby shop. What worries me more is when he goes out to play with his friends on the street as I have to constantly remind him to watch out for cars.

JakeyB · 15/03/2016 00:37

Law in Scotland states that it is not illegal to leave your child/ren alone, however if something bad happens in your absence you will be prosecuted for neglect.

I was very grateful for this one evening when I decided to leave my DC, then aged 9 & 10, alone for 20 minutes. Single parent, busy day, no food in house, so thought fish & chips would be the answer. DC were watching something on TV and didn't want to come out with me. I looked at them glued to the screen, and new kitten asleep beside them and decided just to go myself - what could possibly go wrong?

I had a hypo attack on the way back from the chip shop, and had no glucose to hand so my walking speed and though processes were considerably slowed. Eventually arrived home to be greeted by DS2 at the door saying the kitten had got trapped in the loft so he'd phoned the fire brigade. I said I was sure it wasn't that bad and a voice from upstairs said " I'm afraid it is", and a neighbour came down the stairs - DCs had alerted her too.

"I need my pills" I mumbled, as neighbour took her leave, giving me odd looks. "then I'll cancel the fire brigade". "Too late, they're here" she said, as the engines pulled up and the place became awash with firemen. By this time I could barely speak and was slurring my words, while trying to prop myself up so I wouldn't fall over. Why no one called social services I'll never know, and to add insult to injury, the kitten came legging it down the stairs past all the firemen who were going up to rescue it.

I grabbed a chocolate bar before I fainted, and had to try to explain all this to the fire chief guy with a mouth full of biscuit whilst looking like a drunk and an unfit mother. Buy the time they accepted my story and left, the food was stone cold.

I phoned everyone I could think of the next day to find out what the law was, I was so convinced they'd take my children away. Very re-assured to hear that I hadn't committed a crime, and that the neighbour had wondered what was wrong with me but at least she hadn't thought I was drunk!

NeedsAsockamnesty · 15/03/2016 00:56

some risks are subjective and dependant on each persons own assesment these are things that would be impossible to legislate for and neither should we.

retrorobot2 · 15/03/2016 02:23

At the age of 8 I was going home from school on my own - 10 minute walk - inner suburbs (equivalent zone 2/3 London). That was very much "on my own", not as part of a group with other children.

At the age of 10 (possibly 9) I was bringing my 6 year old sister to school on my way to school. It wasn't very far - 5-10 minute walk to her school and another 5 minutes to mine. I was also going to the library and bank on my own.

At the age of 12 (almost 13) I was walking/cycling all over the city centre, including some quite rough areas (for a school science project).

My parents certainly left me in the car on my own at the age of 8 or 9 - possibly with my younger sister also. Not for very long - 15-20 minutes max.

This was 1980s in a mixed middle class / working class area (or rather middle class area adjacent to working class area but I don't remember any difference in how kids from each were).

Incidentally, most families had SATMs or mothers who worked only part time during school hours. I remember my parents (mother was teacher, but not in my school) talking about latchkey children who would be at home on their own for hours after school until a parent came home.

One thing that I would say is that my mother didn't drive and so anywhere local involved us walking. I got used to crossing roads and knowing how to get from A to B. I think that was the case for other children also.

FoxesSitOnBoxes · 15/03/2016 02:33

I heard this on the radio this morning along with an interview. I agree that it sounds very odd and that made me worry slightly that we only have one side of this story. Might there have been a background of other things that we don't know about that made social services/ police go after this? Would we be so quick to side with this family if the dad had left his child to pop into an off licence or betting shop?
I completely agree that this seems rediculous but did wonder that there might be more to it

BlossomMagic · 15/03/2016 02:42

Can I ask NI carsitters- what happened when you went home at night? You didn't all have off street parking? Or did you?

Here in Aus, you really can't leave children in the car very often, because of the strength of the sun. I guess there has to be some common sense applied.

Witchend · 15/03/2016 08:57

Common sense has to reply. Dd1 was much more responsible at the same age than dd2 or ds.
I'm in a current dilemma in that I have ds ill. He can't even stand up for more than a few seconds and has crawled downstairs. I'm running out of ibroprofen and Calpol for him and his temperature is hitting 40 at times.
I could rub up to the pharmacist 5 minutes away. But actually he's 8yo, and I don't want to leave him, I wouldn't normally and I know he wouldn't get into trouble but it isn't right for him.
I've got options. I cab rub a couple of doors down and ask if the can lend me some, several of my neighbours I'm certain would go for me. Or the doctor told me to phone this morning to let him know how he is, and I'm could tell him the situation I'm in and I'm certain he'll get some to me.
Lots of options.

However dd1 at the sane age would have been fine for me to nip up to the shops.

Witchend · 15/03/2016 08:57

Apply, not reply!

Bumshkawahwah · 15/03/2016 09:13

I was another one who was left outside the bookies while my grandad went in! I was a pretty responsible child and had a door key from 11, walked my 5 year old brother home from school from 12 and walked home from school myself at 7.

I live in Asia and last week heard of a mum - European - who left her 11 and 8 year old at home while she and her husband flew off to different cities for work. They live in a small apartment compound full of expats so there were plenty of people to run to if they needed help, but still...

treaclesoda · 15/03/2016 09:16

Blossom I lived in a country town so TBH about 90% of people did have off street parking.

But it was really only in the town centres that you couldn't leave a car unattended, to prevent the bombing of a commercial area and the economic damage that followed it. It wouldn't have applied in a residential area in the same way. (Although if anyone had cause to believe that they personally might be targetted (Eg police or prison staff) they would make sure that they lived somewhere that they could keep their car secure overnight to minimise the risk of a bomb being put under it, and they were trained to check their car every morning. )

FeralBeryl · 15/03/2016 09:17

I am actually 'lolling' at Treacle and Wiggles car sitting
I'm now imagining a missed business opportunity akin to workhouse days sending all of the small children out to do this for a few quid.

treaclesoda · 15/03/2016 09:21

Ah, but feral your business would have been undercut by all the little children who were desperate to do it for free It was an exciting day when you were asked to 'go and sit in the car'. No cash incentive was needed. Although a quarter of sweeties to eat whilst waiting was always an added bonus...

Jw35 · 15/03/2016 09:29

I don't think there can be a law as every child (and parent) is different with different feelings about it.

I left my dd for the first time aged 8 just for 5 mins to go to the shop across the road. By 10 I would leave her at home for up to 30 mins and by 11 up to 4 hours. Now she's 12 I would leave her alone in the daytime as long as she felt comfortable for.

UterusUterusGhali · 15/03/2016 09:38

The man in question wasn't convicted in the end though, was he. He appealed and the judge agreed with him.

The law is wooly though.
I think it's right it should be on a case-by-case basis.
Leaving sick child in the car while you buy medicine a few feet away; sounds fine.
Sensible 10yo letting themselves in while parent is at work; sounds fine.

Generally parents know their child and what they are capable of. There's a tiny number of parents who don't get it right and the police have the power to prosecute them.

FeralBeryl · 15/03/2016 09:39

A quarter too! Not even 2 ounces? which I still try and ask for, and get looked at like I'm from Dad's Army.....

BertrandRussell · 15/03/2016 09:51

I'm always amazed at how many mumsnetters grew up in the 50s............

FeralBeryl · 15/03/2016 09:54

Oi Bertrand
Late seventies/early eighties thank YOU

BlossomMagic · 15/03/2016 09:55

Thanks for the reply Treacle

Mousefinkle · 15/03/2016 10:29

Crikey, my parents and grandparents would have all been locked up. I was left alone LOADS. I'm another that had to wait outside the bookies for grandad and my dad . Was left home alone writing stories and drawing pictures at my nan's every Saturday evening while she went to work for a couple of hours probably from age 7/8. She locked me in but left a key and she told me never to answer the door or phone. I wasn't a stupid child, I always had my wits about me. I was popping up to the corner shop at 7/8 as well for my mum and she regularly left me home alone when she was going places I didn't want to go which was quite often considering I've always been a bit of an anti-social loner . We were left in the car regularly when my mum would go into the shop as well.

I think this is utterly ridiculous. I'm glad the judge saw sense.

Housemum · 15/03/2016 12:13

Joe Corals should have set up a creche - I always thought I was the only person who'd ever been left outside the bookies as a kid! Morning routine would be going to International supermarket with Nan, then she'd nip in to put her bets on and I'd sit on the railings outside Boots. Depending on the day I was either riding my pony or a motorbike. Don't ever recall anyone taking any notice of me - presumably it was quite normal in the 1970s!

Personally? I will happily leave my 12 yo alone with the 8 yo. Both know the house rules (no cooking, don't answer the door, what to do in an emergency and which neighbours to go to if any problems). Not for a night out, but if I wanted to go to the post office/co-op/petrol station down the road. Why drag them out for no reason when they are perfectly safe reading/colouring/watching TV?

wigglesrock · 15/03/2016 12:19

Blossom the cars were most at risk in a city centre/ shopping area/high footfall area like treaclesoda mentions. Anywhere were disruption would be maximised if there was a bomb scare/controlled explosion, road closed etc. Unfortunately it's started up again over the past few weeks . I lived in the city, most people parked their cars in the street overnight but a driveway was considered the swishest of the swish. If it was possible most people tried to shoehorn a driveway onto the house.

Just popped up on my news page that the prison officer who was injured in last weeks booby trapped car has died - so very very sad.

Flip

1 2 3 4