So pissed off at tories putting military youth groups into deprived area schools

[trashcanjunkie]

We live in Newcastle. Yes it's a deprived area. I feel aghast at the fact the only half decent comprehensive school in our area has a cadet group based at school, with fucking army wankers there recruiting kids. The whole army campaign to get them young and 'make them better people' boils my fucking piss. They're cannon fodder who will likely get shipped out to oil wars, and left up shit creek without a paddle, wanting for basic kit etc. Then they either get blown to pieces, die, or come home horrifically injured or psychologically shattered. Now the government are rolling out another military type program and are putting money into sending them into schools in deprived areas.

Fwiw I've nothing against youngsters learning discipline or survival skills etc. I just have an issue with recruiting cannon fodder from 'us plebs'....

I think more hard facts are needed, not speculation or anecdata.

If you mean that focussing recruitment efforts on young people in poverty-stricken areas is unethical and exploitative, in your view, why don't you just say that?

I'm assuming by 'army wankers' you mean the top brass and recruiters?

Wasn't a brillaintly well-received choice of words, was it?

Recruiters are not working through the cadets.

Hasn't this been posted repeatedly by people with direct, current, firsthand knowledge of both?

Also Gordon Brown was not targeting any particular demographic, any state school could pursue this (and be funded to do so). It's totally up to the school, who have to initiate. No soliciting by the cadets. Then or now.

I think the cadets are probably, all things taken into account, a force for good in the lives of those who get involved, as either participant or volunteer.

HOWEVER, I do worry that it's part of a larger trend of 'normalising' war and violence and that organisations like the cadets contribute towards military action being seen as the natural solution to every conflict. Whilst I don't consider myself to be a true pacifist (I believe that military action is sometimes the lesser of evils), I do wish we would place as much emphasis on cultivating skills for peace as we do in cultivating skills for war.

The private schools with cadet forces are recruiting officers. The cadet forces in disadvantaged areas are recruiting cannon fodder.

"The Labour government who introduced this would certainly seem to believe it is, given its proposed expansion of cadet forces across the state sector and use of former soldiers as mentors."

Fixed that for you

trojan I was not interested in Tory vs Labour - but rather to the facts of who are being recruited and into which positions. I am not anti military but think the demographics of who goes where in the military is worth discussing.

cleaty that is rubbish. There was a young man from a non-leafy comprehensive on radio 4 yesterday talking about cadets and how he now wants to be an officer.

It's not just private schools that have cadets. There's one Dow the road from here. I believe they parade every day at the end of school. It's the school you have yo live practically on site to get in too.

We had cadets. I don't recall any recruiting at all. It was mostly about team work. Although I do occasionally drop into conversation that I know how to handle a gun. I was better at the stripping and cleaning than the actual during though.

trashcanjunkie you sound really really naive and that's making you come across as ignorant and rude, sorry.

'army wankers'???

They are in schools for good reasons not to recruit children to the Dark Side

I am however interested in accuracy in ascribing party to policy.

And had thought that following the posts by tiggy, TheWombat and others, it was pretty clear where the initiative came from.

Happy to discuss demographics of recruiting. To assist an evidence-based discussion, can you help with info on any of the following?

Most officers have degrees (though still some with only A levels which is the formal required minimum). What is the class-based demographic breakdown of those with the qualifying educational level, and how does that compare map to tri-service officer intake?

Do you include defence medical services in those figures?

What is the current breakdown of non-officer entry by educational qualification?

I am however interested in accuracy in ascribing party to policy.

Fair enough, i am one of those bores who hadn't read the thread.

As to your questions, sorry, are they rhetorical? I am sure the answers are out there.

However, given the inciteful and derogatory tone of the original post and the fact that there are currently serving military families who have spoken up on this post whom I do not wish in any way to disrespect, I will, with all due respect to those in service, bow out of the conversation.

Cadets at private schools, if they choose a military career, will have quite a different career path to the kids in deprived areas.

YANBU

Also war isn't a career path I would wish for any of my children, irrespective of entry. I would be deeply disappointed if any of my kids fancied killing for a living.

It is also worth remembering that cadets offer all these activities at an exceptionally low cost. We have a 10 day summer camp which costs £60 - no extra charges for anything. I have seen costs for similar scout camps costing from £125 to £275.

The private schools with cadet forces are recruiting officers. The cadet forces in disadvantaged areas are recruiting cannon fodder.

Absolute rubbish and offensive.

Posie
That comment right there just goes to show how unbelievably stupid you, and your kind are.
"killing for a living" ?? Fuck off!!!
What about the 4 months I spent building a school in Kenya? Or fanjo-deep in honking flood water in Cumbria before Christmas?
Get over yourself.

I would be deeply disappointed if any of my kids fancied killing for a living.

Wow, just wow.

Cadets at private schools, if they choose a military career, will have quite a different career path to the kids in deprived areas.

As a generalisation, you could say that about any career path.

Also war isn't a career path I would wish for any of my children, irrespective of entry. I would be deeply disappointed if any of my kids fancied killing for a living.

Joining the armed forces doesn't necessarily mean war or killing. You can join the Army and only play music if you want.

I would be deeply disappointed if any of my kids fancied killing for a living.

Also war isn't a career path I would wish for any of my children, irrespective of entry. I would be deeply disappointed if any of my kids fancied killing for a living.

Insulting and incorrect.

But hey don't let the actual truth get in the way of your comments.

I would be deeply disappointed if any of my kids fancied killing for a living.

I would be deeply disappointed if my children had grown up to be so narrow minded, illinformed and judgemental that they even considered making such a statement. Thankfully, neither of them have!

"As to your questions, sorry, are they rhetorical? I am sure the answers are out there."

Not exactly. I was hoping that one of the posters who seem to know about the demographics of this would have the evidence readily to hand. As it's not me who was suggesting discussion on this thread about the demographics of recruitment, I don't really mind whether the evidence base is linked or not.

Just an interest that if the thread does turn that way, the actual info is readily available.

Because "Cadets at private schools, if they choose a military career, will have quite a different career path to the kids in deprived areas" might well be a result of the relative ability of those schools to deliver education to the required minimum entrance level. If the minimum entrance level is being an unfair barrier to officer-level entry, how should it be altered?

How is this any different to Army Cadets? Many areas both deprived and affluent have Cadet groups running. My brother started in our local one over 30 years ago and went on to a successful army career....we lived in a deprived area and he had virtually no qualifications. When he left he had achieved the education he missed in school and was a Warrant Officer. He loved being in the Army and has travelled the world (including Iraq...on both occasions there was conflict).

Difference now is that we live in a much more scary world and I think the risks are higher. My son is autistic so won't ever go to the army but I have to be honest and say even if he wasn't autistic I wouldn't wish him to become a soldier in this day and age.

Although I wouldn't want it for my DS I accept that for many youngsters it offers fabulous opportunities.

Any one who says something like that or indeed uses the tedious "hired killer" label regarding someone in the forces knows precisely nothing about what they're talking about and should actually be embarrassed by such a display of ignorance. I'd be cringing if I were you right now posie.