Why would someone say this about vaccines? Is it odd?

[PuzzlingPanda]

Was in a health food shop today and mentioned an ongoing issue I'm having with one of my do.

The man mentioned he thought the biggest thing going wrong with our children was all the vaccines they receive. He said they full of nasties, designed to make people ill.

It could be put down to a man having a pointless rant but why would he say this? Is there any sort of truth in it?

Not the first time I've heard negative things about vaccines.

Now I'm worried about it.

Yes, I've seen that. I was wondering if that was the outbreak Bruffin was talking about when she referred to Japan 'moving vaccines' and if she had the corresponding SIDS figures showing that SIDS 'actually went up'. It doesn't seem like this outbreak was a case of 'moving vaccines to age 2' - more a case of people not vaccinating at all due to concerns about the vaccine. (There were also concerns in the UK and Sweden) so perhaps she's referring to something else?

Tables from the Funayama, M., Tokudome, S., and Matsuo, Y., Autopsy Cases of Sudden Unexpected Infant Deaths Examined at the Tokyo Medical Examiner's Office, 1964-1993. American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, 1996. 17(1): p. 32-37

1964-68 : 250 SUD cases, almost none were SIDS
1969-73 : 153 SUD cases, almost none were SIDS
1974-78 : 153 SUD cases, approx. 7 were SIDS *
1979-83: 104 SUD cases, approx. 25 were SIDS
1984-88: 118 SUD cases, approx. 65 were SIDS
1989-93: 144 SUD cases, approx. 90 were SIDS

• Pertussis immunization age was raised to two years in 1975

So do you think it was the rise in vaccination age or the fall in the number of people bring vaccinated that caused the outbreak? Why are you directly relating it to the increase in SIDS? What was the previous vaccine schedule and when did it go to 2,3,4 months?

"Why are you directly relating it to the increase in SIDS?"

Because a previous poster claimed that not vaccinating infants with DTP reduced SIDS in Japan to zero. As Bruffin has shown, SIDS actually went up in Japan during the/a period when infants were not being vaccinated. Ergo, the previous poster was repeating what I believe we refer to as "porkie pies".

"the rise in vaccination age or the fall in the number of people bring vaccinated"

Er, wouldn't the former cause the latter? I don't think you can distinguish between "children who weren't vaccinated because it wasn't offered for whatever reason" (it's not clear from the info we've been given whether Japan ever officially raised the vaccination age, just that under-2s weren't being vaccinated) and "children who weren't vaccinated because their parents decided not to" in terms of disease spread. I don't think pertussis goes round asking you why exactly you haven't been vaccinated.

Ah, hang on, just seen Bruffin's post - yes, there was an official rise in DTP vaccination age, presumably in response to the concerns about its safety.

More water muddying happening.

A poster said among many other things- "Japan stopped vaccinating under 2's...and their SID rate dropped to zero. Yes. Zero."

This has just been shown not to be true. It would be good if this could be acknowledged.

bruffin I don't see any mention of vaccination (to pertussis or otherwise) in that article. They only appear to correlate the deaths with sleeping position. Is this the right citation? This would seem to show a correlation rather than cause and effect.

Does Japan have cyclical pertussis incidence as we do? If so, do SIDS cases rise and fall with pertussis infection rates?

bruffin didn't claim that not vaccinating increased SIDS rates. Another poster claimed that not vaccinating eliminated SIDS. Bruffin's link simply shows that no, SIDS was not eliminated in Japan at the debatable time.

Leedy - vaccination coverage fell from 80% to 10% in 1976 after the Japanese government temporarily suspended the vaccine after 2 deaths of infants within 24hrs of receiving the vaccine in 74&75. Probably when they decided to change it to 2 years in 1976 but obviously people were concerned enough to not vaccinate which meant vaccination acceptance was low until the aP vaccine replaced the whole cell vaccine in Japan in 1981. It was given to 2 month olds from 1989.

Yes, YouCannot, I was thinking correlation not causation!

Katharina I read "Consequences of japan moving vaccines was babies started dying of whooping cough." and the subsequent SIDS tables as a claim that removal of the pertussis vaccine caused an increase in SIDS. The data provided don't show that.

And yes, the data for not vaccinating eliminating SIDS also appears to be flawed.

why they

This is a subject which gets a lot of people excited and you will come across them a lot at the health food shop. I'm not sure there is any real evidence to support his ideas.

"And yes, the data for not vaccinating eliminating SIDS also appears to be flawed.

It does not appear to be flawed. It simply does not exist.

"It does not appear to be flawed. It simply does not exist."

I'll rephrase, the claim appears to be flawed.

Sorry, links for vaccination coverage and introduction of aP vaccine here

and here

The SIDs table was to illustrate that SIDs was not 0 after 1975 when they suspended the vaccine for 2 months then raised it 2 years. I never linked SIDs to whooping cough [[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15231967
however there looks like there may be a connection]]

what has 1989 got to do with anything with what happened in 1975

It was when the vaccine went back to being given at 2 months - as I said in my post.

but that has nothing to do with sids and vaccines, other than muddling the waters as usual

Your SIDS figures went up to 1993. I asked you when the vaccine went back from being given at 2 years to 2,3,4 months and you didn't reply. I then found the figures myself. Not sure why you think that is 'muddying the waters'. I think it's relevant if people are trying to compare the SIDS figures for the time period you gave to the age the whooping cough vaccine was being given.

Was he wearing amber beads?

Bumbley- it was stated categorically on this thread that when the age for vaccination in Japan was raised to 2, SIDS rates fell to zero.

Are you prepared to say that is not true? Yes or no.

Well obviously they didn't fall to zero. I'm not sure why you're asking me. I didn't write that.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/28c10e2c-f1dd-46bc-a7ce-b7e0fc024246

This is the first evidence session regarding Men B petition

No Dr Google, no link or counter link just todays facts

I watched it live Sugar and I think the witnesses all did incredibly well in the circumstances. I would have been a basket case. I think some useful points were made, and hopefully some gains can be made to speed up diagnosis to help save lives. It will be interesting to hear the expert take on things next week.

I'm going next week