Should I pay up?

[blahblueblah]

I've name changed to protect my identity.

As a family of 6 siblings we have contributed on average at least £500 a year towards my parents cars, new kitchens, bathrooms, doors, floors - the list goes on to projects desired my mum. Each year we get asked by one excited sibling to contribute, everyone else works and earns high salaries and they readily agree, I feel awful because as a SAHM I do not earn money and although my dh is lovely about it and we are not very short of cash I still feel guilty/bad about it.
On one occasion I was asked for £1500 for a new car to pay immediately and I was unable to agree as we were in the middle of a major building project, I was unable to contribute, I was assured this was absolutely fine.

So now my dad has lost a lot of money in a scam, lost all his savings and he has also borrowed secretly from his siblings and my brother and my sisterand I am now being asked to contribute towards the settling of these debts and given I have been a SAHM for 10 years I am feeling very uncomfortable about expecting my dh to cough up again, my siblings think I'm being tight - they have all massive houses, no mortgage and no financial issues.
Tonight my lack of contribution to the car has been brought up - 4 years on - my lack of enthusiasm for paying back my aunt who gave cash to my dad and doesn't want anything back because he basically brought her up. I'm not convinced I need to pay back my siblings for the money they lent my Dad either - if he'd asked me I would not have agreed - we simply wouldn't have had the money but now it seems that everyone else's financial decisions are my financial responsibility.

I need some perspective...

Did you have a thread about your dad and this scam a couple of weeks ago? Anyhow ,you are not responsible or obliged to pay and should put your immediate family first .

Yes I did Flora. The scam has been part of our lives for 2 months now, it's been tough- Dad has just about accepted it's a scam - after two and a half years - thankfully my parents had separate finances but no one feels mum should subsidise dad - yet that is what dh is doing with me! - my head is so all over the place...

It started I think with siblings wanting to show how well they had done - we have had a very dysfunctional childhood, alcoholic agressive parents but we all came good and like the world to pretend it didn't happen. We don't stay in touch we use money to express emotion.
The fear is that apparently dad dies owing money to aunt and that would shame him and us. Dh is supportive beyond belief but I am over the whole thing.

I thought you would be from an Irish/Catholic background.

all of this is classic stuff a therapist would have a field day with- trying to make bad parents good, using money as a currency of love, covering up (bet you all did a lot of that in your childhoods), shame, covering up some more, pretending everything is wonderful when it isn't.

You saying "I can't afford this" is probably the only honest sentence said in relation to your parents by a child ever. So no wonder your sibs are reeling a bit. If you can be honest about that, imagine what else you could be honest about? and if you were honest about everything, who knows what would be said or thought or even, god forbid, disclosed to aunts and uncles and neighbours.

Well done you for saying no. breath of fresh air, I'd say. I also think next year you might find another sibling or two joining you.

trying to make bad parents good, using money as a currency of love, covering up (bet you all did a lot of that in your childhoods), shame, covering up some more, pretending everything is wonderful when it isn't.
God this has made me weep - you have hit the nail on the head.

Seriously Blah, well done you for getting out of this toxic narrative. My guess is your dh is so sane and nice and loving that it gave you the space and comfort to be able to say no to the madness.

I'd also say there is more than one of your siblings who would love to do the same- and definitely more than one of their spouses.

You have a lovely family of your own now who love you and don't ask you to perform or lie for them. you can do whatever you want -including refusing to go on throwing good love after bad (as the song says)

If they carried on I would be extremely blunt.
'look at the end of the day, he has all these debts. thats what his assets will be used for. He dies. Everyone gets paid. Sorted. and in the meantime, we are left alone to live our own lives rather than bailing them out all the time. The way they are spending anyway doesn't mean that there's going to be anything left in the house. So fuck it. I will enjoy our family money now rather than living on a pipe dream of what if... If that's what you want to do, fund their life, your problem. just leave me alone'.

Screw having guilt. I would be far more guilty about depriving my own family and home for the sake of pleasing others.

Thought so and I know on that other thread that you said that your mothers money was not involved . I agree with your siblings that your mum shouldn't have to subsidise your dads stupidity however neither should you and if anyone should subsidise him your mum should step up first . Your father has been an idiot and that is not your fault ( or your husbands ) .

Are they still drinking?

I once knew a man who remortgaged his house twice, forging his wife's signature both times, had gambling debts and credit card debts into six figures, and in the week it all came tumbling down had just signed for a £20k car.

He also owed a few grand to his adult daughter.

When his wife found out and kicked him out, and he had no income then, and was back with his elderly parents, his son started paying the monthly installments to the daughter on his fathers behalf. The son could ill afford it.

It was a fucked up situation, but the fact that they all thought this repayment arrangement was OK was the most bonkers thing about it.

I hope you can stand up to them and remove yourself from this toxic dynamic, OP. It is incredibly hard to go against the current in a family like this, but you have to put yourself and YOUR family first.

YA SO NBU, I can't believe you want to be told YABU!!

No. Just No. You don't have to subsidise your Dad's stupidity naivety. If your siblings choose to do so, then that's up to them - but you don't have to agree.

Seriously, you don't.

If I were your DH, I'd be seriously put out about giving them money for this as well; so you are doing the right thing by not asking him to do it.

Coming at this from the other perspective.

I have probably the highest salary of my siblings, ElderSib probably next and MiddleSib probably least. MS and I have families to support, ES has been single for a few years now.

When my father needs financial help, ES and I try to sort it out. There's no question of asking MS to help, they are lower earners with no financial cushion and two children who need paying for. ES has probably subsidised Dad for most of her adult life, I'm also helping when I can.

And I still think your parents and other siblings are taking the piss. You absolutely do not need to contribute anything to your parents' lifestyle or help make up for their poor choices. Whether it's you or your DH that earns your family money is irrelevant. It's your family money to spend as you see fit and not your sibs or parents to decide that some of it is also theirs.

Completely agree with how CanYouForgiveHer phrased things.

Thanks for all your comments. Dad put all his assets into trust or the house, to avoid the risk of paying care home costs so he can't draw on his own assets, he has no way of paying off his debts.
I feel pissed off that my two siblings chose to give dad money in secret as per his request, they asked no questions and now it's gone tits up, I'm expected to help to bail them out but it gets thrown back at me that it's really Dad's money not mine.
Mum stopped drinking 15 years ago, Dad stopped 2 months ago. I love them dearly - I really do but I know that in my family if you love someone you show it with money. My mum always professes to be mortified by the amount of stuff she is given, but she's very insecure and the reality is that it gives her a massive boost, getting a new anything gives her a boost...she has never quite go over the poverty she experienced as a child.

By the time I finished reading your post OP, I had to pick up my jaw from the floor. Your parents were receiving a constant flow of money from their children and they wasted them on a scam, now you are expected to contribute even more to buy them out. I'd say a complete and resolute no. Your parents are grown-up and should know better. It's already the initial premise that's completely crazy but continuing to do so is even crazier.
Don't pay-up, if they want to pay off those debts it's their choice but you shouldn't be coerced into doing so yourself.

So your dad will still until very recently have been spending pissing away money on booze! Even more reason not to give a penny!

For the toxic relationship side of things, I recommend stately homes thread and 'out of the fog' website.

You are not being unreasonable to decide to have no part in your family's strange communal debts and spending patterns! However you do need to think about the fall out from staying out of things. No family is perfect and all cultures have habits which seem really bonkers.

money paid out will be recovered from equity in the house once mum and dad have passed
Then this where your aunt's repayment comes from. Don't all wills start with "after payment of my just debts" or some such?

This isn't so much Irish Catholic guilt as adult children of alcoholics still caught in a hellish dynamic.

trying to make bad parents good, using money as a currency of love, covering up (bet you all did a lot of that in your childhoods), shame, covering up some more, pretending everything is wonderful when it isn't. [Canyouforgiveher]

There are secrets. Adults are vying for their parents' love by bankrolling them and trying to prove how well they have done. You all need to get past the shame and fear that keep you bound to your parents. You all need to get past the conditioning and the need to give and give and give to your parents.

www.adultchildren.org/lit-Problem --
'We lived life from the standpoint of victims. Having an overdeveloped sense of responsibility, we preferred to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. We got guilt feelings when we stood up for ourselves rather than giving in to others. Thus, we became reactors, rather than actors, letting others take the initiative. We were dependent personalities, terrified of abandonment, willing to do almost anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to be abandoned emotionally...

...We learned to keep our feelings down as children and kept them buried as adults. As a result of this conditioning, we confused love with pity, tending to love those we could rescue.'

Ring a bell?

Adult Children of Alcoholics website.

So your siblings are justifying these payments based on your dad having tied up his assets in a trust, which he can't trust, and the proceeds of which will go to the six of you when he dies. As I understand it this trust includes property. Your siblings feel obliged to pay back the money they might get in the future, to your dad now? OK there is all kinds of wrong with this logic, but I will park that to one side for now.

Do you care about this future money? If not then say to your siblings that fine, if they feel that you should be paying back this money to your dad now, then you should get the trust evaluated. Split the value 6 ways. Add up all the money you have given your dad so far and deduct from your portion - that's ring fenced as you've already paid that money back to your dad.

Tell your siblings to get a legal document set up and you will sign over a percentage of your share of the trust to cover whatever they give their dad. That way they can't complain that they will be out of pocket when your dad dies.

Make sure this is set as a percentage of rhe trust because the property market could crash, for instance or it could increase.

Make sure it is done legally with a proper paper trail and that your siblings arrange all this and pay for it not you.

Take a deep breath and step back. You know there is all kinds of wrong with your parents twisted logic that because they have tied up their assets in a trust their children should give them the equivalent in cash now. It is very very wrong. And you are really not being unreasonable at all. Your DH is really lovely and it sounds like you are too. I wish you all the best for the future xxx

No family is perfect and all cultures have habits which seem really bonkers

That is really minimising and a load of nonsense tbh. No family is perfect but that is no reason for OP to continue to put up with toxic behaviour. There os a difference between slightly bonkers and highly damaging. OPs family's dynamic is the latter.

As for signing away a percentage of the trust, that is just further enabling this charade and it gives credibility to the theory her siblings are living by. The fact is that OP has a choice and she has to find the confidence to exercise it completely, without compromise, or she will continue to be drawn into the madness.

Using your siblings' logic back, tell them:

"We can't afford it now. Just deduct it from my share of the inheritance"

I totally agree about being vocal about not paying, and it can be deducted from any inheritance.

I would be reluctant to say just deduct from inheritance. I'd want something in writing. Otherwise the parents will pass and they will present her with a huge bill of money she 'owes' them because they ended up giving way over the amount in the trust.

TBH with the family history and lack of closeness anyway I would definitely recommend just ignoring them. You would not be at all unreasonable if you did.

Thank you for all the supportive comments. I am very lucky to have met someone as lovely as my dh, always honest with me yet totally supportive.

I decided to sent an email to my siblings letting them know that I did not wish to discuss money with them, I would not be taking money from dh to pay Dad's debt (although dh sees the money as shared) and that Dad's debts will be dealt with when the estate is settled. I've had phone calls from 3 of my siblings supporting my point of view....the other 2 siblings will not respond - they will not be happy that I have refused to comply with their wishes.

trying to make bad parents good, using money as a currency of love, covering up (bet you all did a lot of that in your childhoods), shame, covering up some more, pretending everything is wonderful when it isn't. [Canyouforgiveher]

There are secrets. Adults are vying for their parents' love by bankrolling them and trying to prove how well they have done.

These comments from Canyouforgiveher and Mathanxiety are frighteningly insightful, they moved me to tears when I read them. We do all carry deep scars from our childhood. My parents have an incredibly dysfunctional relationship with each other and with us. The relationship with my siblings has a controlling nature to it, as one of the youngest they parented me while my parents were otherwise engaged with a bottle of spirits - the dynamic is all wrong. And the shame, there was a lot of shame - I hadn't really called it shame before.

I am sticking up for myself with my siblings for probably the first time ever - before I didn't want them to think badly of me, now I just don't care.

No way!

Children do not keep the parents.

What you earn you keep and do with what you like.

If you choose to give money to your parents that's your choice. Your siblings should not be spending your money for youn

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Well done for sending the email. You did the right thing