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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to not tell my mother what my Aunt has done...

90 replies

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 15:56

Bit of a weird one, I feel like I cant win either way.

So, my Aunt lives in another country (NZ) in a house that is in family trust, and is owned by "the trust" which says she can live there rent free for the duration of her life. When she dies, the trust becomes the property of me and my brother, so in essence we inherit this house.

My mother subsidises her quite a bit with day to day living expenses. My aunt gets a state pension, but it's not much, and my mother wants her to have a good standard of living and eating well etc, and generally not go without. My Aunt worked as a seamstress, minimum wage, retired at 60, never had much money or savings, and if relevant, she probably has Aspergers syndrome (she is textbook, but was never diagnosed, as they just weren't in those days). Whereas my mother had a successful career, baby boomer, property, decent pension etc. Which is why she subsidises her.

My Aunt has a difficult relationship with my mother. She has a sense of entitlement that things should be bought and paid for by my mother, things like trips over to see my mother in Oz, trips to the UK to see me (she has had 2 in the past). Recently she decided she wanted a new kitchen. The kitchen is pretty old, 1970's, but functional, and after some negotiations she convinced my mother to go halves with her, which my mother didn't have to do, but did anyway.

Today on the phone my Aunt told me that despite the money for the kitchen being covered by her and my mother, she had got a bank loan for "just day to day stuff...in case I need new glasses or something".

Mum would go spare if she knew this. She would explode. Mainly because she gives her enough to cover this kind of stuff. The loan goes until 2021 apparently, and I don't know how much she borrowed. The trouble is also, my Aunt is terminally ill. She has breast cancer, it has spread to her lungs and her bones, and she's doing well but in terms of prognosis, statistically she'd be doing well to have another 2 or 3 years left of her life. So it's likely the loan will outlive her, sadly.

From my point of view I don't mind if my brother and I sell the estate and pay off her loan with the proceeds in the event of her death. If this is even necessary - she doesn't own the house so maybe if she dies the loan gets written off. Who knows. Either way, it doesn't bother me if I end up inheriting this loan along with the house.

My mother would think I am incredibly unreasonable not to tell her about this, and I'm trying to work out why it would be unreasonable of me not to break her confidence. She's a grown woman, she has the status to get a loan or the bank wouldn't have given her one, she can basically do what she wants. That said, my mother is financially subsidising her so probably feels she'd have a right to know if she'd done something like this - probably because she feels she'd be left to sort it if the loan outlives my Aunt and partly because its not a very sensible thing to do, as it's not for something specific.

My Aunt swore me to secrecy but if my mother found out some other way, I could be drawn into a big kerfuffle. I guess its only if my Aunt tells my mother I knew, which would probably only happen in an argument type situation. Then I'm fucked. I suppose I could just deny all knowledge?

I can't tell my mum can I...AIBU? If you were helping someone out to such an extent financially would you want to know about this? I feel tainted now, like I'm carrying around a big secret...

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 03/03/2016 00:33

Sounds good. At least it's out in the open now.

HicDraconis · 03/03/2016 00:36

According to my (very rough!) calculations, $5k over 84 months at 18.95% is around $200 a month. However she'll end up paying back more than twice the original loan at that APR which seems ridiculous.

It's not that easy to get a loan in NZ and certainly for someone to get a loan at her age with that term would be unusual. The higher APR reflects that it is probably unsecured (my secured loan is around 6% with a national NZ bank, for reference).

Good luck with it all Flowers Wine

CrazyMary · 03/03/2016 00:41

A few things stand out to me;
If she has not disclosed her medical condition/accurate medical history when taking out the loan, it can be seen as deceit and render any insurance policy attached to the loan 'null and void', meaning the outstanding debt will still be outstanding after her death.
Does your aunt have a valid will or document appointing a 'power of attorney' over her affairs when she becomes unable to continue managing her dealings/payments/finances?
I would ask her to send you a copy of any contract she has signed, the devil is in the details (or in most cases, the small print).
At least your mother knows now, so you don't have the additional burden of keeping the secret.

TattyDevine · 03/03/2016 01:05

Thanks all, she is sending me a document.

My mother has power of attorney over her health decisions but not financial, at this point, as far as she is aware. She is getting legal advice on this.

I don't know if the bank asked about medical history or status - nor how she answered. Hopefully it will be in the document. She probably won't have been willfully deceitful - though this is hard to prove either way. It's a shame she doesn't have a statement of special needs or whatever equivalent there is.

She has a will, that bequests (is that a word/thing?) everything she has (assets, like car, furniture, musical instruments, and cash) to my brother and myself.

The medical thing is a complicated and sad story in it's own right. She got a lump in her breast, the same breast that had at the age of 18 or something had a cyst. She had this diagnosed as a cyst way back then. When a lump appeared in her breast, she assumed it was the cyst returning, and ignored it. Didn't tell a soul, didn't mention it to her GP.

It became a fungating tumor which spread to her bones and lungs. Grade 3, stage 4, hormonal breast cancer. Prognosis around 2 years from diagnosis (we are about 18 months since then).

It came to light because she was anaemic, tired, had pain in her bones and kidney pain.

They were doing blood tests etc.

She saw my mother while this was going on Christmas before last. She had lost 10kg and was white as a sheet. My mother was worried sick, asked her if she had any symptoms, she said no (still didn't mention the breast lump).

Multiple GP appointments, still didn't mention it.

Finally she had some kind of scan I think, and they found the tumor, now measuring quite large, asked to have a look, and there you go. Breast cancer. Advanced, and terminal.

"Oh I thought it was a cyst".

Mum was in bits and blamed herself, like somehow she could have prevented it.

Since then Auntie has convinced herself she can take her hormone blocking cancer drug and it will continue to shrink and that's the answer. Mum has tried to facilitate a discussion which basically makes it very clear that if she doesn't have surgery and chemo, her life will be significantly reduced, and even if she does, she will never be cancer free (stage 4). But she is adamant she just takes this pill, and that she won't have surgery or chemo, which is of course her choice. I have been careful in helping mum ensure she has the opportunity for informed consent, as much as her mental capacity allows, so understands the implications of not having the surgery or chemo, but without pressuring to have them when she adamantly doesn't want them. She is scared of hospitals and medical treatment, she managed to endure having some kind of port put in under her skin though.

It's very difficult and complicated and I have probably nearly exhausted the goodwill on here! Thank you all so much.

OP posts:
AcrossthePond55 · 03/03/2016 02:18

Holy crow, almost 19% interest!!!???? That's outrageous, or at least it is to me. You can get a signature loan of US$5000 for 7-9% with good credit, 13% max with 'poor' credit.

One of my concerns is that somehow your folks will have to make up a monthly 'shortfall' in your aunt's income because she hasn't taken into account the monthly payment OR she won't stick to a budget. You say her income will 'just' cover this, but what's going to happen if she outspends and ends up calling your folks saying she can't pay her light bill or there's no food and the money's gone for the month. Or worse, she defaults on the loan.

And I think someone needs to have a word with this 'friend' who drives her around and tell him he needs to stay out of Aunt's financial affairs. If he thinks she's lacking something, he needs to speak to your mum.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 03/03/2016 03:38

She's paying credit card interest rates, that's dreadful! But possibly because she has no collateral and they do know that, I don't know.

Very sad story about your aunt's disease - your poor mum! :(

(bequeathed, by the way, if you wanted the verb :) )

And no, you're nowhere near exhausting good will - not even started! because you've listened, taken on board, taken action and have moved things on. The only people on MN that I've seen people get exasperated with are the ones who don't listen, don't take any suggestions on board, don't do anything that's been suggested to help themselves, and keep coming back with the same old problem again and again, sometimes under NCs, sometimes not. That wears people's sympathy thin.

Thanks for you (and your mum) because I think things are going to get quite a bit more complicated before all this is over.

FeelItInMyToes · 03/03/2016 07:47

I feel for you all Tatty , it's a very difficult situation to be in especially with your aunt's poor health (physical and mental). I do think the bank has acted unethically, at least. Hopefully any documents she sends will explain things better.

Please keep updating, lots of goodwill here!

Optimist1 · 03/03/2016 08:28

Current crisis dealt with, OP - hope the next one isn't too soon! Smile

JugglingFromHereToThere · 03/03/2016 09:03

As you've probably gathered from my previous posts I feel the financial issues here are only a small part of the overall situation.
The main challenge I think is going to be in supporting this Aunt through the final stages of her illness, and of course this is especially difficult when she lives on the other side of the world.
I only say this in complete sympathy for you all, not in any way wanting to add to your sense of burden. Just to warn you really that the next year may be quite challenging for you all.
And no, nowhere near using up the legendary MN well of goodwill Flowers

TattyDevine · 03/03/2016 10:41

So true about the finances being only a small part of the problem here. Mum doesn't even know where to start when things go really wrong health wise - it's difficult for her to discuss it with my Aunt.

In terms of care we are pretty sure when the time comes she will want to go into the hospice, because that is what her mother did when she had cancer, and its what she "knows". She's very much about copying what she knows. That's why she thought "breast lump equals cyst".

Things will get difficult. Thankfully Mum is retired and has healthy finances so she does fly over often, and if things go wrong health wise, she can fly over and stay with her and sort things out. This is what she did at the start of last year during diagnosis, she was there about 6 weeks. It's a big burden on mum but there is nobody else.

I do worry myself for my parents when they get very old or sick with me here in the UK. Hopefully by then, my children will be older so I can fly over and help and stay a while. I do have a brother but he's in Perth and they are in Melbourne. Which is probably a larger distance than my mother and my Aunt in NZ. Stupid ginormous country.

I guess this is something we will all face...but geographical distance does not make it easy.

OP posts:
kelpeed · 03/03/2016 10:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TattyDevine · 03/03/2016 11:10

That is very helpful, thanks kelpeed

OP posts:
Gremlinsateit · 03/03/2016 11:36

FYI that is the standard interest rate for an unsecured personal loan from a major NZ bank. So it will not be secured over the property, though goodness knows why they thought she would be able to make the repayments.

TattyDevine · 03/03/2016 12:22

Yes, it is very standard and above board Gremlin which is something! Its ANZ bank.

I think she will be able to make the repayments. It might be tighter for her some months though. If she can't, she might have a case with the Ombudsman. Probably not but I have forwarded the details to my mum.

I'm going to drink some wine tonight!

OP posts:
stealtheatingtunnocks · 03/03/2016 13:36

What a sad situation. I'm sorry for your family, this is tough stuff.

Thank goodness for Skype et al. Organising this stuff from overseas is not easy, your aunt is lucky to have you.

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