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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to not tell my mother what my Aunt has done...

90 replies

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 15:56

Bit of a weird one, I feel like I cant win either way.

So, my Aunt lives in another country (NZ) in a house that is in family trust, and is owned by "the trust" which says she can live there rent free for the duration of her life. When she dies, the trust becomes the property of me and my brother, so in essence we inherit this house.

My mother subsidises her quite a bit with day to day living expenses. My aunt gets a state pension, but it's not much, and my mother wants her to have a good standard of living and eating well etc, and generally not go without. My Aunt worked as a seamstress, minimum wage, retired at 60, never had much money or savings, and if relevant, she probably has Aspergers syndrome (she is textbook, but was never diagnosed, as they just weren't in those days). Whereas my mother had a successful career, baby boomer, property, decent pension etc. Which is why she subsidises her.

My Aunt has a difficult relationship with my mother. She has a sense of entitlement that things should be bought and paid for by my mother, things like trips over to see my mother in Oz, trips to the UK to see me (she has had 2 in the past). Recently she decided she wanted a new kitchen. The kitchen is pretty old, 1970's, but functional, and after some negotiations she convinced my mother to go halves with her, which my mother didn't have to do, but did anyway.

Today on the phone my Aunt told me that despite the money for the kitchen being covered by her and my mother, she had got a bank loan for "just day to day stuff...in case I need new glasses or something".

Mum would go spare if she knew this. She would explode. Mainly because she gives her enough to cover this kind of stuff. The loan goes until 2021 apparently, and I don't know how much she borrowed. The trouble is also, my Aunt is terminally ill. She has breast cancer, it has spread to her lungs and her bones, and she's doing well but in terms of prognosis, statistically she'd be doing well to have another 2 or 3 years left of her life. So it's likely the loan will outlive her, sadly.

From my point of view I don't mind if my brother and I sell the estate and pay off her loan with the proceeds in the event of her death. If this is even necessary - she doesn't own the house so maybe if she dies the loan gets written off. Who knows. Either way, it doesn't bother me if I end up inheriting this loan along with the house.

My mother would think I am incredibly unreasonable not to tell her about this, and I'm trying to work out why it would be unreasonable of me not to break her confidence. She's a grown woman, she has the status to get a loan or the bank wouldn't have given her one, she can basically do what she wants. That said, my mother is financially subsidising her so probably feels she'd have a right to know if she'd done something like this - probably because she feels she'd be left to sort it if the loan outlives my Aunt and partly because its not a very sensible thing to do, as it's not for something specific.

My Aunt swore me to secrecy but if my mother found out some other way, I could be drawn into a big kerfuffle. I guess its only if my Aunt tells my mother I knew, which would probably only happen in an argument type situation. Then I'm fucked. I suppose I could just deny all knowledge?

I can't tell my mum can I...AIBU? If you were helping someone out to such an extent financially would you want to know about this? I feel tainted now, like I'm carrying around a big secret...

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Fatmomma99 · 01/03/2016 23:56

The VERY strong thought I had when reading this was if this was the other way around (i.e if you were the kid had the secret and asked for it to be kept from the other adult, the adult would normally tell the adult. As in, if my neice or nephew told me a 'secret', I would normally tell my sister. And if my DD told her a secret, I would expect her to tell me).

[my current family situation is hectic, so these rules don't apply to us at mo, but in 'normal' times, this is what we would have done].

So, I agree with almost everyone, and think you should tell your mum.

Good luck. x

TattyDevine · 02/03/2016 00:00

Optimist I think if I do anything at this point, it will be to encourage my Aunt to tell my mum, or ask her if she'd prefer I mentioned it instead, if she doesn't want that conversation with her.

I wish now I knew how much this loan was for, because if it's NZ$2000 or something small, who cares. Sod that, I'll wire it to her. It's silly. But a 5 year loan for that seems bizarre.

I don't think it's anything to do with the kitchen people, who are a small family firm, the mother of the guy who owns it she went to school for. There is less of that finance on things culture over there too. Plus the cost of this kitchen, which is small, is tiny compared to even a modest kitchen at a cheapish place here in the UK. And she said "bank loan" and there was some context in that she had gone into the bank to change her credit card to one with no annual fee and I think it happened then, from the conversation. I hope they didn't "upsell" her, though if they did I doubt they did their due diligence.

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NightWanderer · 02/03/2016 00:23

Did she actually get the money, or has she just applied for the loan?

I think you should call her back and try and get more information before calling your mum.

TattyDevine · 02/03/2016 00:39

She has the money, so it's too late to get her to undo it...

I do wish I'd found out how much it was. It might give a bit more context. In fact it would! If its 2k, whatevs. It it's 20k, it's probably more than my Grandfather even paid for the house back in the day and he would turn in his grave! But in fairness, it's not all about him. She has her own life. But she also has a very dedicated sister and she hasn't a whole lot of regard for that.

My mother funded her a 2nd trip to the UK (I know she sort of brought this upon herself for doing this, I get that) back in 2005, and when she told my Aunt she was treating her to this trip, my Aunt said "about time!".

Sounds awful but I really think her condition, and the fact she never had any help or guidance with it, unlike today, plays a part.

Mum feels the worst combination of guilt, resentment, bitterness, worry, and desperation about the whole thing.

Someone upthread (sorry I will try and respond properly) asked "how did your mother as a sibling end up playing the role of parent?".

She has been doing this, and it has been expected of her, since she was 5 years old. Look after your sister. Aunt is 2 years older, but they ended up in the same class at school because Aunt stayed down a year and mother was pushed up a year. All her life she has been expected to look out for her and put her needs first. My mum is 72 this year, she can't seem to break the habit of a lifetime. It's a bit sad really. Mum feels guilty for being the clever, talented one who had a career, got married, had kids, bought property, and succeeded at life, mostly anyway! Something nobody should ever really feel guilty about.

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HicDraconis · 02/03/2016 02:20

Not sure how your aunt managed to get a loan. I'm in NZ and we have all manner of issue with the mortgage because the house and section are owned by our Family Trust (sounds similar to your setup) but the trust has no income. I own the mortgage as I have the income and we make the repayments directly from our bank account to the mortgage account. We "gifted" the house and section to the family trust so we actually don't own our home.

If we die, the only people who can benefit from the trust are those that we named as beneficiaries when the trust was set up. That will be in the original trust deed (the creation document). There will also (or should also!) be a "professional trustee" who has the responsibility of ensuring any financial transactions involving the trust are in the best interests of the trust beneficiaries. In our case, our third trustee is our lawyer and the beneficiaries are our children. If we were to die, the house would remain the property of the family trust and only the boys can benefit from it. My sister is named as their legal guardian in this event but she would have to meet our third trustee and demonstrate that selling the house (for eg to fund the boys' educations) was in their best interests.

When your aunt dies the loan will be taken from her estate. The house - which will remain the property of the family trust - should not form part of the estate and so won't have to find repayment. Unless your aunt was one of the original trustees, she can't manipulate the trust finances to secure her loan. Even if she were an original trustee it would require a full meeting with the other members and a lawyer to take out a loan secured on trust assets.

If she's obtained the loan fraudulently (even by accident / not meaning to) there could be significant penalties. You need to tell your mother, find out the exact value of the loan and how it was obtained and probably talk to a lawyer.

NightWanderer · 02/03/2016 03:13

I think you need to talk to her again and find out more. There's no way a 74 year old with no income except state pension could get a 5 year loan. If she used the house as collateral then they would have needed to see the deeds. This doesn't make sense. She may be confused or mixed up. If not, the bank has made a huge mistake.

saffronwblue · 02/03/2016 04:03

If your mum already has the difficult mix of feelings that you have described , then feeling that her sister has colluded with her own daughter (ie you) is going to make her feel even worse when this all comes out as it inevitably will. You must tell her as otherwise it will just compound your mum's grief, guilt and anger in the future.

VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon · 02/03/2016 05:14

If your aunt lacks capacity in some way to understand the consequences of getting a loan then your mum does need to know about it I think.

JohnThomas69 · 02/03/2016 05:37

Don't know why people are telling you the loan could be secured against a house that she does not own. She also has not asked any of you to be a guarantor so none of you will be liable in the event of death. Incorrect advice. I'd leave her to it tbh.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 02/03/2016 05:42

tatty I'd tell your mum on the grounds that you're worried about her state of mental health. She's not believing in her cancer prognosis, she's taken out a loan, it would be valid to question whether or not she's suffering from something else as well, such as Alzheimer's.

I'd tell your mum, out of care.

greenfolder · 02/03/2016 06:21

In all honesty I would only have one worry here.

Assume she can't use the house as collateral, cos that is illogical.

She is elderly, vulnerable and possibly easily persuaded.

Who has leant her the money and on what terms?

That's your issue really.

I would say to you mum something along the lines of " I'm concerned about Auntie Joan. She wasn't making much sense and was talking about a bank loan of some sort, something about glasses? I can't imagine that anyone would lend her money at reasonable rates. What do you think?"

I think she may have told you for a reason.

TattyDevine · 02/03/2016 10:06

I think what I need to do is talk to my Aunt agin first. I need to find out:

How much money she borrowed
Confirm that it was definitely from her bank
Clarify that it is a longer term loan, 5 years or whatever
Ask whether or not she said she was a homeowner, or what exactly is it they think is collateral for the loan, and whether it is accurate/true (the information she gave the bank)

If it's a reasonably large sum, or if she has done it as a "homeowner" which legally she isn't, that is worrying and I can tell her that. I can then encourage her to discuss it with mum. I can offer to tell mum for her so she doesn't have to.

If she refuses and says under no circumstances must your mother know, I can then tell her my concerns and that really if it's that bad that mum cant' know, it gives mum the right to know (because if it's no big deal why can't she know?) and that she put me in a difficult position saying not to tell mum.

I can take it from there, she might listen to me and tell mum. If nothing else she might at least think, Tatty might tell her mother now, so I may as well, and if she doesnt, and I do end up telling mum, at least she won't be as surprised or feel as betrayed - if she already knows the reasons why I think mum should in fact know.

What I can't do at this point is call mum and tell her, having had this conversation only yesterday where she told me this secret and feels she has my confidence, and then have the shit hit the fan with no warning. I need to be up front with her about my concerns, if any (like I say if its a small 2k loan or something it's not really a big deal as long as there are no legal implications of how she got the loan, and I fear there may be).

Maybe she's a little confused and the bank just gave her an overdraft or something - but if that's the case i'm not sure where the 5 year thing came from.

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DinosaursRoar · 02/03/2016 10:38

Op - why would the trust have to pay the loan? Your aunt isn't one of the trustees, the trust isn't set up to benefit your Aunt, so there's no reason why the trust would be liable - it is likely to be an unsecure loan, perhaps with a hideous interest rate applied - alternatively she's obtained the loan fraudently by falsely claiming to be the homeowner, which the bank or institution hasn't bothered to check - but if that is the case, there's no reason why you/the trust would have to pay it off, it will come out of her estate, if her estate isn't big enough to cover the debt, it'll be written off.

If you call her back, see if you can find out what sort of loan it is, but if she does have some LD, then having poor impluse control it's that unheard of, so not staying within a budget is easily done if you're not any good at that. (things like, having £200 in your bank account so viewing that as you having £200 to spend today, without being able to plan "oh, my phone bill hasn't gone out yet, that'll be £50 next week")I don't know how easy it is to get an unsecured loan in NZ, but it's very easy to get a large sum in the UK if you are prepared to sign up for evil interest rates and don't have a poor credit history.(Particularly if you don't get that you have a terminal illness so haven't mentioned it)

BTW - I can easily see why your Mum has taken on the parenting role of her sister, it's very normal in families where an adult has some learning difficulties that doesn't mean they are 'bad enough' to need care, but can't really cope with adult life without some help/supervision. I have a few friends with adult siblings with similar levels of needing some help, who have essentially agreed to "take over" when their parents die, and have been prepared since a young age that they will have to do so.

DinosaursRoar · 02/03/2016 10:43

oh and I think you are right to talk to her and try to get her to tell your mum instead - the 5 year thing, it might be that the overdraft is only for 5 years and she has to pay it back/have it reviewed by then?

If she has got a loan by pretending to be a homeowner but the bank hasn't bothered to check that (unlikely if it's secured against the house), then while it might come unstuck, it's unlikely to before she dies if in the meantime she's paying the debt back.

TattyDevine · 02/03/2016 11:22

Yep, fair enough, I get that the trust, with her not a beneficiary, and it not therefore being her "estate", won't be liable for this loan.

Actually one of my main concerns now is that it is an unsecured loan with a silly interest rate that she doesn't really need, and is therefore essentially wasting money on interest, or that she's unintentionally done something illegal (which I suspect is still the bank's problem - if she does before it's paid and they say, hey, you said you were a homeowner, it's not like she can get in trouble as she won't be there).

If my mum knew that she was going to be spending money that my mother has given her on interest, which all loans must have, she'd be livid. She does have a right to know this.

Still with the find out more, use these points of clarification to encourage her to tell mum, and tell mum myself if she won't, unless it's all very low key/low interest/just an overdraft/storm in a teacup.

Christ on a rusty bike. So much stress. I guess this is what happens when you hit middle age (me) and relatives get elderly...lots of issues. And distance doesn't help.

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FeelItInMyToes · 02/03/2016 12:32

I wondered about an overdraft too Tatty, overdrafts do have expiry dates it's just that the bank normally automatically renews them and quite often they can have a 5 year term.

WoodleyPixie · 02/03/2016 12:50

It has to be an unsecured loan. They aren't difficult to get if you have a good banking history and money in the bank. So its fairly easy, aside from the age, to believe that the bank she has been with for years will lend her money on an unsecured loan.

That doesn't mean its a huge amount either, most likely to be a coupe of thousand $?

I'm in a similar situation, my sister has learning difficulties and its assumed that when my parents die that I will move into the family home and take care of her, buying my brother out of his third (Not sure where they think I will get the £300k plus from as I rent!). My sister has poor money control and if she has £50/£500/£5 or £5000 she will spend it not thinking that she needs £30 for the dog groomer/£20 for the hairdresser/£10 for dog food etc.

jay55 · 02/03/2016 12:52

Is it possible that a kitchen company talked her into a finance deal?

I know it must be so difficult dealing with this at a distance. Sounds like whatever she has done will have been missold to her given her situation.

Redroses11 · 02/03/2016 12:56

Would it be that they upped her credit limit on her credit card or something?

TattyDevine · 02/03/2016 15:52

No, I think it's a loan, but I will get clarification. I will try and pluck up the courage to ring her tomorrow morning. Maybe Friday morning...

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FeelItInMyToes · 02/03/2016 15:58

Good luck Tatty

stealtheatingtunnocks · 02/03/2016 16:12

It's possible that she has agreed to something that she has not understood or that she's giving you a confused story, or that she's done something daft and doesn't want to admit it.

Do you have power of attorney, or whatever the NZ equivalent is, for your aunt?

Might be worth using this to get that sorted, she's going to need the help.

You sound lovely, by the way.

BoomBoomsCousin · 02/03/2016 17:43

With what you've said about your aunt's mental capacity, it does sound like she may be vulnerable and someone should look over the details of the loan. But does that have to be your mum if her first reaction is going to be to get angry with her? Is there someone else who is physically close to her you could ask to check on it and make sure your aunt hasn't been taken advantage of?

TattyDevine · 02/03/2016 18:46

Thanks Stealth! I tried to find out today from my mum, by way of "casual conversation" so as not to get her suspicious or worried, whether she sorted out the power of attorney. She has, and it's with the Solicitor, but I couldn't get a clear answer on whether it included financial stuff at this point or just health stuff. And I didn't want to probe on that point at this stage, with her not knowing about it, and it was right before bed for her (Oz time) so didn't want to risk worrying her as she doesn't sleep that well. So I'm unclear on that at this stage.

There is a bloke who helps my aunt out - he's not a boyfriend - (she's never had a boyfriend or a relationship) - he's an old friend of the family they went to school with, and he keeps an eye out on her, drives her to hospital appointments when my mum is not there (Aunt can drive but prefers a lift for this stuff) etc.

But the trouble with this bloke is that he actually believes that my Aunt should borrow money against the Trust to afford the things she wants. He actually got involved just recently with the new kitchen thing and wound my mother right up telling her she should pay or let her borrow against the trust etc (this can't be done legally - and he doesn't know the full picture, and its none of his business really). I suspect that he might have something to do with the loan, in as much as he might have suggested it to her. So I don't feel I can speak to him about it at this stage. In addition to this, I don't know how to contact him (don't have his phone number) and can't ask Mum for it without sending her into orbit with worry/curiosity etc.

I'm going to have to talk to Auntie again!

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TattyDevine · 03/03/2016 00:14

Right I have an update for those interested, and apologies to those who are sick of seeing this thread bumped Grin

I have spoken to Auntie. The loan is with her life-long bank, is for NZ$5000, is a 7 year loan, with an interest rate of 18.95% apr.

I rang her, stated my concerns that the bank doesn't really have her best interests at heart, and that they offer products in order to make money, and that it would be better if Mum knew, and asked her permission to tell mum. She said "If you think you can handle her" to which I replied, leave it with me, it will be okay in the end.

She did it because whilst she had $2000 for her new kitchen, she felt it might have left her short (this is where the "for everyday stuff, new glasses or whatever" came into it - if she didn't have that buffer zone, she might be left short in an emergency.

She also said, and this gives an insight into her lack of cognitive reasoning, that if she spent her $2000 savings on the kitchen, she "wouldn't get paid interest on it" - yet paid no heed to the amount of interest on more than double that amount loan would yield over the years.

I asked her what her monthly repayment on the loan is, and she "couldn't' remember, but I'll look it up". So has she budgeted for it? No.

Can she afford it? She probably just about could, if she was careful, but it could get difficult on her income. The monthly repayment isn't crazy, because despite interest, it's a 7 year loan, which is quite long.

What bank gives a 7 year loan to a 73/4 year old on a state pension who is not a home owner? Even if they don't know she is terminally ill and probably has sadly 2 years if she is lucky. It's a grade 3 tumor, she is stage 4.

I am yet to find out what collateral she offered (whether she said she was a homeowner officially/definitively) and I know there is no guarantor.

I then spoke to my mother. She was calm in voice, but shaky, and when she rang me back about 15 minutes later to seek clarification on stuff, she sounded like she had been crying. But she was reasonably pragmatic about it.

We don't know the way forward, whether we can get her out of it, or will make her just deal with the consequences, what will happen after she is gone, etc etc, but mum is digesting it and pondering.

Dad went biblical and said she'll never get a penny more from us, but he is probably reacting and will calm down. It's not his decision entirely - their finances are joint, but my mum was an equal earner all her life (feminist?!) and he would not presume to dictate to her when calm nor would she be dictated to, calm or otherwise.

It will all work out, and I feel a huge weight lifted now there are no secrets and I am not carrying a secret.

Thank you all to everyone, particularly those who said "you must tell her", simply because you were right really, and you all helped me find a way to tell her that didn't sacrifice my values, which were not to break a confidence, and I managed to do so by getting her permission which felt so much better than carrying the secret or going behind her back, even if that was the right thing to do in the long run.

I never had a big sister, but I don't need one, because I have you bitches eh.

Flowers
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