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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to not tell my mother what my Aunt has done...

90 replies

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 15:56

Bit of a weird one, I feel like I cant win either way.

So, my Aunt lives in another country (NZ) in a house that is in family trust, and is owned by "the trust" which says she can live there rent free for the duration of her life. When she dies, the trust becomes the property of me and my brother, so in essence we inherit this house.

My mother subsidises her quite a bit with day to day living expenses. My aunt gets a state pension, but it's not much, and my mother wants her to have a good standard of living and eating well etc, and generally not go without. My Aunt worked as a seamstress, minimum wage, retired at 60, never had much money or savings, and if relevant, she probably has Aspergers syndrome (she is textbook, but was never diagnosed, as they just weren't in those days). Whereas my mother had a successful career, baby boomer, property, decent pension etc. Which is why she subsidises her.

My Aunt has a difficult relationship with my mother. She has a sense of entitlement that things should be bought and paid for by my mother, things like trips over to see my mother in Oz, trips to the UK to see me (she has had 2 in the past). Recently she decided she wanted a new kitchen. The kitchen is pretty old, 1970's, but functional, and after some negotiations she convinced my mother to go halves with her, which my mother didn't have to do, but did anyway.

Today on the phone my Aunt told me that despite the money for the kitchen being covered by her and my mother, she had got a bank loan for "just day to day stuff...in case I need new glasses or something".

Mum would go spare if she knew this. She would explode. Mainly because she gives her enough to cover this kind of stuff. The loan goes until 2021 apparently, and I don't know how much she borrowed. The trouble is also, my Aunt is terminally ill. She has breast cancer, it has spread to her lungs and her bones, and she's doing well but in terms of prognosis, statistically she'd be doing well to have another 2 or 3 years left of her life. So it's likely the loan will outlive her, sadly.

From my point of view I don't mind if my brother and I sell the estate and pay off her loan with the proceeds in the event of her death. If this is even necessary - she doesn't own the house so maybe if she dies the loan gets written off. Who knows. Either way, it doesn't bother me if I end up inheriting this loan along with the house.

My mother would think I am incredibly unreasonable not to tell her about this, and I'm trying to work out why it would be unreasonable of me not to break her confidence. She's a grown woman, she has the status to get a loan or the bank wouldn't have given her one, she can basically do what she wants. That said, my mother is financially subsidising her so probably feels she'd have a right to know if she'd done something like this - probably because she feels she'd be left to sort it if the loan outlives my Aunt and partly because its not a very sensible thing to do, as it's not for something specific.

My Aunt swore me to secrecy but if my mother found out some other way, I could be drawn into a big kerfuffle. I guess its only if my Aunt tells my mother I knew, which would probably only happen in an argument type situation. Then I'm fucked. I suppose I could just deny all knowledge?

I can't tell my mum can I...AIBU? If you were helping someone out to such an extent financially would you want to know about this? I feel tainted now, like I'm carrying around a big secret...

OP posts:
Wolpertinger · 01/03/2016 17:15

In UK law - don't pay off the loan. If Aunt isn't on deeds of the house then the loan can only be recouped from her estate and if there is no estate, it dies with her.

We found this out after my Dad died. He and my mum had spent his last year desperately trying to pay off his credit cards. He had no estate as everything else was in joint names except the card cards - all the outstanding debts were written off. If only my poor dad had known before he died.

Namechangenell · 01/03/2016 17:19

What a can of worms! Yes, I'd tell your mum. If your aunt is living off the loan, why does she need your mum's money as well? How did their relationship become one of parent and child, as opposed to two sisters?!

Re the loan, it can't officially have been secured against the property so you do have to wonder what it was secured against. If you know your paperwork is in order then your aunt either has more income/money than your Mum knows about (in order to have secured the loan) or she may have acted fraudulently. Family secrets always come out - I wouldn't want to be complicit in keeping this one.

Namechangenell · 01/03/2016 17:22

Wolper - all that said, your Dad did what was morally right and tried to pay off his debts. I think that's commendable.

Wolpertinger · 01/03/2016 17:32

He did - but he was so worried about how my mum was going to manage financially. When actually she's better off than she's ever been. He'd have loved to know that.

Anyway I'll stop derailing now. I hate people who don't give you a choice about secret keeping and I'd tell your mum. But I'd also tell her what we've said about checking out the law on loans.

MrsGuyOfGisbo · 01/03/2016 17:39

Your Aunt was very wrong to tell you not to tell your DM. So manipulative
Agree. Tell your mum. She will be very hurt when she finds out, as she will - maybe the aunt tell her - that you kept this secret when she has been so generous and open. Your loyalty should to your mum.
(We had something similar. I told my mum, and told my aunt I have no secrets form my mum (not strictly true but true for the circs) Far too many secrets in families that have no reason to be secret.

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 17:52

Sorry, coming back to this thread shortly to read replies!

OP posts:
HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 01/03/2016 18:23

Awful to be caught in the middle like this! I would tell your mum.

BoomBoomsCousin · 01/03/2016 18:25

I don't really see why you have to tell your mother. You are spot on with the "She's a grown woman". Just because your mother is subsidizing her, she doesn't have a right to know the ins and outs of your aunt's financial situation. Even if your aunt acts unreasonably entitled to your mother's money, that's for your mother to say "no" to and make her own enquireries about whether funds are necessary and being used to her satisfaction. You don't have to be proactive about informing on your aunt. But equally you don't have to keep someone else's confidence and from what you have written you owe far more allegiance to your mother than your aunt. So if it will cause problems between you and your mother to keep this secret, then don't.

There is a caveat I'd add to that though: I find it hard to believe she could use a house she doesn't own as surety against the loan, but if she has managed to do this I think you would be wise to speak up. If I were your mother I would probably have been thinking about the need to keep your inheritance secure as at least a part of why I was subsidizing your aunt. And I would be hurt if I failed to do that for you.

recyclingbag · 01/03/2016 18:30

Tell your Mum.

I had a different situation completely but when the person died everyone found out everything anyway and there was an extra layer of who knew, who didn't tell etc.

It's really not worth it.

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 18:53

It's a good point. What the actual hell has she used a surety against the loan? She has no assets really. A fairly old car, basic tv etc.

I think she's said she is a homeowner. She feels like a homeowner. She lives in the house she's lived in all her life, that she lived in with her parents until they died. The deeds to the house state that they belong to the Trust.

We worried greatly about what would happen to her when my Grandparents died. We didn't know if she'd be able to look after herself. She's done pretty well really - but my mum promised my Granddad she would look after her on his deathbed and at that point the Trust was set up. Mum agreed to the Trust, and in doing so basically waived her right to an inheritance (which wasn't a right at all, but if things were different, at that point she would have inherited half that house and my aunt the other). That's a bit complicated but that's the gist of it.

In terms of money - she has (she says) the full amount for the kitchen in cash (not from the loan). But didn't want to use the whole amount, wanted my mum to pay half.

The kitchen doesn't have to be done - it's cosmetic. If the roof caved in or something, I don't really know who pays for it, but my mother has always said it's not my or my brother's responsibility until we inherit the trust. We don't actually own the house yet. But we are named on the trust. It's really complex.

My mother tends to try and go halfs on things to do with the house, even though she doesn't have to, its sort of goodwill and a bit about my Granddad's dying wish that she is looked after.

She was reluctant with the kitchen because it's a cosmetic improvement rather than a non functioning kitchen. It's just old fashioned, but perfectly functional.

My Aunt doesn't see herself as terminally ill. She doesn't get it. She knows she has cancer, she knows it has spread, she is having tablets that block the hormones that have shrunk the tumor, she blissfully thinks she can just keep taking these forever and it will keep the cancer at bay. My mother has tried to gently tell her that she will never now be cancer free as it has spread, but my Aunt either doesn't understand she is terminal or doesn't want to.

I doubt my Aunt mentioned the cancer to the bank.

Fuck, the shit is really going to hit the fan if I tell mum all this. I don't know if my mum will handle the stress. Well, she'll have to. But oh, my, god.

I've got some serious thinking to do about what to do and how to go about it.

OP posts:
TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 18:54

Re her having the amount for the kitchen before the loan, you have to wonder why on earth she took out a loan. Why, just why?

OP posts:
TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 19:01

"I would query why your Aunt was paying anything for the kitchen when it's not her house?"

She sees it as her house. She's always lived there, so its the only house she knows. She doesn't think "legally". (Like I said, she almost definitely has Aspergers, but in addition to this, I should say, her IQ is way below average. There's no nice way of saying it really).

But apart from seeing it as her house - she wants a new kitchen. She wants it, she's decided, and that's that.

My mother says "She's bored and wants a project at my expense". Forgive her for that comment though, as she's kind of right about that - and she is bored. Her hobby group finished, she's retired, she's bored. There's not a lot we can do about that unfortunately. Mum flies out to visit her several times a year, and rings her every evening to see how she is. She's a dedicated dutiful sister, considering their very difficult relationship.

Aunt does have a lot of good friends though, considering she can be a little difficult to be around - they are very nice over in NZ, all looking out for each other, which is great.

OP posts:
Littlef00t · 01/03/2016 19:04

Bah, I wouldn't tell. Provided you think aunt will pay the instalments, if the loan dies with her, what's the matter?

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 19:08

In terms of the legals, I don't really care if the loan does somehow have to be paid off by the trust on her death. I'd rather that than mum pays it. So she's had some fun on me. Probably not even fun, probably just some nice cash flow or something. My brother may not agree, but he's no ogre either, we are softies really. No biggie really. I don't see this inheritance as "mine" or even feel entitled to it, but it is what my Grandfather wanted, and I am very grateful to him. No, he wouldn't have wanted my Aunt to do this, for sure. He was very careful with money.

But like many of you have pointed out, if she's not on the deeds of the house, what kind of stupid bank gave her a loan, even if didn't say she was ill? She's 73 and on a state pension.

Mind boggles. She did say the loan "wasn't a big amount". What is big though? How long is a piece of string!

OP posts:
FeelItInMyToes · 01/03/2016 19:09

In order for your aunt to have secured a loan she would have had to prove her income levels, what security she had etc. If you don't mind me asking, what age is your aunt? Does she have a monthly income? Do you know how much the loan was for? If it was a smaller amount and therefore unsecured she would have had to shown affordability to repay. I'm just worried about all this and the impact it could have.

Reminds me of a customer who I had who got a loan for home improvements and suddenly had a magnificent set of double d's!

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 19:10

That's a bit where I was at Littlef00t, after my conversation with her this morning. I've been pondering it though and my big fear is that mum finds out I knew. But I could probably live with that.

OP posts:
bakeoffcake · 01/03/2016 19:45

I really don't understand why you have to tell your mum.Confused

It's going to upset her, make her view her sister differently and she'll probably end up thinking she has to pay off the loan, when she's already spent a lot of money.

When your Aunt dies it can all be can be sorted then, I agree with others that I expect noone will be liable for repaying it.

If you're worried about your mum finding out, just tell her your aunt told you it was a small amount (which is true) and that you didnt want to worry your mum, or for her to feel she had to plough more money into your Aunt's upkeep.

Optimist1 · 01/03/2016 19:47

Is there any chance you could get your aunt to tell your mother? If you made it clear that you're very uncomfortable being asked to keep things from her and reminded her that it makes sense for your mother to be kept in the picture about her finances she might well do it. If she won't, then you could tell your mother with a clear conscience, IMO.

And in respect of the loan - could it be that a kitchen salesperson assumed that she was the owner of the house and persuaded her to make the purchase on some sort of finance agreement? (Thus making the $$s your mother provided available for "new glasses" etc.)

JugglingFromHereToThere · 01/03/2016 19:58

Just thinking that maybe it's fortunate for your Aunt that she can have the approach to her illness that she does - and possibly being Aspie may help with this? (I think I'm right in saying it can mean seeing things a bit differently from those who are more NT) Most of us are probably inclined to worry more than does any good if we have cancer, especially when the prognosis is not that encouraging.
Regarding the finance issues and whether or not to tell your DM, I don't think it is that crucial which way you go with it, but hopefully the discussion has been generally helpful?

BloodyHell33 · 01/03/2016 20:38

OP just because people on here tell you that you should tell your mum, doesn't mean you should.

YOU know your family, these people don't.

Your Aunt is dying, does she really need the 'shit to hit the fan'? I doubt it. She is an adult who can take loans out if she likes. Whether your mum is giving her money or not.

Don't say anything, you didn't get the loan out. You know nothing about it.

BloodyHell33 · 01/03/2016 20:39

'You know nothing about it' as in [angel] your innocent if your mum ever asks you!

DinosaursRoar · 01/03/2016 20:49

OP - can you please get some legal advise from someone who understands NZ law? You assume it's not your duty to do anything to the house because your mum has told you that, but if it's yours and your DB's house, you could be liable for repairs.

You assume your mum will have to pay of the loan after your Aunt dies, but under UK law that wouldn't be the case unless she wanted to, it's worth checking out the situation before your mum throws money at something she might not need to. If it's an unsecured loan, in the UK that would just be taken from the estate, if there was no estate left, then it would be written off.

TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 23:47

DinosaursRoar, where have I said I assume my mum will pay of the loan? I have only said that I assume the Trust will pay the loan, if the loan needs to be paid, and that I'm okay with that.

At no point have I said my mother will have to pay the loan - only that my mother will go berko about there being a loan.

OP posts:
TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 23:52

Juggling I think it has been quite a good thing for my Aunt to have this lack of emotional investment in this illness. She was said to have about 2 years (oncologist to my mother, based on statistics) and she's a good year and a half into that, and doing fine at the moment, which is great.

And this discussion is very, very helpful, thank you! Thank you to everyone who as replied. It is sometimes so valuable to discuss things with people who have no emotional investment. Sorry I have been slow in replying, today has been crazy, with my daughter's eye test, and then my own Niece coming over with relationship dilemmas! (Perhaps I will retaliate by doing non-sensible things when I am older Wink )

OP posts:
TattyDevine · 01/03/2016 23:55

BloodyHell it's true she would not necessarily benefit from the shit hitting the fan. In fact she definitely wouldn't. In addition to that, she wouldn't benefit from me being the one to tell, it would damage our relationship. I don't know how many confidants she has - on family stuff at least - and whilst I don't necessarily relish being one, I obviously am one to her. I don't know how she might handle that loss.

OP posts: