is this way too much for an 8 year old??

[hugsarealwaysneededhere1]

Son is learning guitar and vilion at school with some practise (not enough I'm sure) at home.
He goes to Cubs once a week
Fencing once a week.
Life Guarding once a week

At the weekend he has a swimming lesson and tennis.

He loves guitar, cubs and fencing. He is a good swimmer but now needs to stop lessons and either join the squad (train 3 times a week) or just swim once a week as part of a fun junior team. He would rather just play than swim seriously.

It all feels quite a lot! With homework too.......or is this just the norm??

[titchy]

Ealingwestmum: Satisfaction is dependent on the individual, and cannot be defined by anyone else.

Hear hear.

[Twinklestein]

I think you did, actually

No I didn't, if you read my posts.

[elegantlygrey1]

I force my nine year old to do piano lessons. It is a daily battle. He often wins.

Sorry to all those who love music (ds will listen to classical music and requested Einaudi cds for Christmas) but the piano is the only thing I he finds hard. It is the only thing that is in any way a challenge to him.

As for all the other stuff - if a child consistently refuses to do any extra curricular activity, should you force them? I'm reluctant to do this on top of the compulsory piano lessons.

Very understanding piano tutor!

[steppemum]

I did clarinet at school.
I did it every week right up until age 18.

I didn't practice much, and wasn't very good. I did a grade 3 exam at some point, but never another one.
My teacher knew that, and she also knew that I enjoyed it and found it a good foil to the highly pressured school environment.

I did learn to read music well, and as an adult went on to teach, myself the guitar and recently have joined dd in the brass band learning the Baritone.

I want my kids to like music and enjoy it. I want them to learn to read it, so that it is a skill they can come back to, and not to be afraid of picking up an instrument and having a go.
dd1 plays the baritone in the band too, and is in year 6. School has just offered music lessons. She has taken up the guitar, she will only do it for 6 months until July. I am hoping it gives her just enough that she can pick it up and strum and fiddle.

This whole thing about needed to play to a high standard etc kind of misses the point to me.

[AppleSetsSail]

As for all the other stuff - if a child consistently refuses to do any extra curricular activity, should you force them? I'm reluctant to do this on top of the compulsory piano lessons.

I'd certainly force a sport if it came to it.

How long has your 9 year old been playing piano? My 10 year old plays violin while we started with a fair bit of struggling and still have a very occasional struggle, it's been pretty easy on the whole because he's made progress and it's now actually fun for him. If your son's been at it for more than say, 9 months (I pulled that out of thin air) and he still hates it I'd move onto something else.

My eldest took cello for a while and it was a nightmare, he had an almost irrational reaction to it. Eventually we moved onto the guitar and that's been pretty easy, as above.

[massistar]

It doesn't sound like too much to me but my DS would do sports every waking hour if I let him. He's picked up different sports and activities over the years but hasn't dropped any other so he's now doing rugby, football, netball, lifeguards and jujitsu. The jujitsu alone is 3 times a week. But it's all coming from him.. On days when he's not doing anything he asks to go out for a run or on his bike. I think he's a bit like a large dog that needs frequent exercising. His dad is the same, if he doesn't exercise he gets really grumpy.

My DD isn't quite as into it but she still does swimming, gymnastics and jujitsu because sport and exercise are core to our family, they are embedded into our daily life.. I play competitive sport and go to the gym and run and my DH cycles to work most days, runs and surfs.

Take your cues from your child, if it's too much then you'll soon know. I'm curious about those whose children don't do much though... Don't you worry that they're not getting enough exercise?

[AwakeCantSleep]

I am hoping it gives her just enough that she can pick it up and strum and fiddle. This whole thing about needed to play to a high standard etc kind of misses the point to me.

steppemum I totally agree. The main thing is the enjoyment from it, and the connection to music which will be there for life.

Some instruments are well suited to the "pick up and strum" approach (guitar is a good example I think, and clarinet up to a point). I wouldn't count violin in this category. It is one of the hardest instruments to learn, and most people have to put in years of practice to get to a level where they can sight read a simple piece and consistently produce a pleasant sound.

[ealingwestmum]

No flaming from me elephant. We call the piano the black beast (named after our very understanding piano teacher too)!

We're 4th year in, about to do G6 (yep, teacher likes grades), but this has been steady paced, and broken up lots with non-syllabus stuff.

She's been given plenty of opportunities over the years to give it up due to rants, frustrations and angst it causes my husband but, she refuses.

Getting a good merit for her (yep, for the purpose of my point we use ABRSM), is a MAJOR achievement. If she were to get anything less than a good distinction from her violin, that would be a fail (by her standards).

I ask her frequently, which instrument she prefers. She always answers the same. The violin's easier, but I love my piano more, even though I'm not very good at it.

I keep it going because, although getting her to practice is like pulling teeth, I cannot discount her level of perseverance. She'll never be great, but satisfaction...yes she gets this.

[Twinklestein]

I don't understand. How have you determined the standard, or the level of pleasure derived?

From long personal experience of playing musical instruments. If you like art it's a lot more satisfying to be able to draw a man that looks like a man than a dog. It's the same with instruments.

If you're tone deaf you might not notice if you're shit, but most people do. Most people have a general grasp of what standard they are. Playing out of tune, not being able to get your fingers round the notes, not being able to play repertoire you would like to, is not particularly enjoyable.

You do get deluded talent show contestants who really enjoy belting out a song sounding like a dying cat. How much does everyone else enjoy it? Do you really think objective standards cannot be determined?

And what of those children than don't take the 'traditional' route, but can knock out jazz, or other non mainstream genres with far more pizazz than a classically trained, let's go through the motions route?

Why do you assume classical training is 'go through the motions'? In fact that is the way of bad teachers whatever the genre - jazz, classical.

There are some children who are exceptionally gifted who can pick up an instrument quickly whichever the genre. But it's entirely dependent on their own talent. There are plenty of children who are enthusiastic but not so gifted or confident, who with good teaching and support, could reach a good standard.

We do do it your way Twinklestein for the record, but cannot say she takes enjoyment from all of the chamber music she's subjected to, especially when most of it is really dull and catering for too many levels of ability

?? I'm not sure what 'catering for too many levels of ability' refers to. If you think chamber music written 'dull' I'm not sure why you're bothering. A lot of chamber music is very beautiful.

[wheelofapps]

How, exactly, do you force a Sport? (or anything else)

My ds is 11.5 and 5ft8".
He does no extracurricular sport.
How do I force him exactly?

[MrSlant]

Just re-read this thread and it's made me chuckle. Apart from that it's making me head upstairs to do my practice, taking my grade 3 piano in summer at the ripe old age of 42, god help me, I'll never play Carnegie Hall .

[elegantlygrey1]

The nine year old has been playing for the last four years, but eighteen months with this tutor who is a lot better than the last.

He did taekwondo for a few years, until I could no longer bring myself to drag a sobbing, hysterical child across a crowded car park. I am not exaggerating.

He actually picks up the stuff on the piano really quickly.

btw - physical activity means bus rides here, some quite long, and while ds is not quite at the hysterical stage on the bus, he specialises in sarcasm and bloodymindedness.

[AwakeCantSleep]

MrSlant you could play Carnegie Hall if you really wanted to . Search for Florence Foster Jenkins on youtube (not the movie, but the original tracks).

(Brace yourself.)

[Twinklestein]

I'm certainly not going to flame you elegantlygrey but have you considered a single line instrument? Some children struggle with the two hands and the two clefs.

[Twinklestein]

10 minutes of violin practice a few times a week gets you precisely nowhere. The repertoire is very beautiful but you won't get to explore it if you don't put in the work. Violin is also not much fun if you don't make any progress

Exactly.

[elegantlygrey1]

Twinklestein - at the end of Yr 3 ds was getting 100% on Yr 6 mental maths. The piano stays because it is a challenge. It is the only thing currently that is mentally stretching him.

Trust me, the hell I go through to get piano practice done is not undertaken lightly. I would love to be able to give up on it. I am just desperate to keep him going at the only thing he doesn't find easy.

(and I suspect if he gave it 10% effort, he'd be sailing through the piano like he does with everything else)

[AppleSetsSail]

How, exactly, do you force a Sport? (or anything else)

My ds is 11.5 and 5ft8".
He does no extracurricular sport.
How do I force him exactly?

wheel I was answering a philosophical question of 'do you force extracurriculars onto a child'. My answer is 'yes' and fortunately my kids respond very well to the all-powerful incentive: video games. It's the only carrot and stick neccessary around here.

[AppleSetsSail]

elegantgray may I ask, have you tried another instrument? I understand that you'd like him to stay the course, but maybe piano is not for him.

[elegantlygrey1]

AppleSetsSail not been successful here.

I have tried everything I can think of and he will refuse to be bribed or blackmailed in any way. It's great for him if he is facing up to peer pressure in later life, but it's a bugger right now.

[elegantlygrey1]

AppleSetsSail sorry, was responding about physical activities.

I want to stay with the piano because he finds it tough. He finds everything that has any academic content easy, but he doesn't challenge himself, ie word puzzles or sudoku or anything like that.

I don't want to do the tiger mum at him at 9. I just want to give him some life skills about sticking at stuff.

[ealingwestmum]

If you like art it's a lot more satisfying to be able to draw a man that looks like a man than a dog

I nearly stopped just here. As this really sums up your bias. I get that you have had many years of long personal experience of playing musical instruments. Are you also an expert in art, creating and curating to be able to talk on behalf of the art sector as a whole? Once again, satisfying to who's criteria...as it appears to be yours only. I quite enjoy painting things that don't look like things they're meant to. Doesn't mean that I can't paint realistically. My choice, and not everyone's cup of tea, granted.

Do you really think objective standards cannot be determined

Of course I don't. But there is a spectrum. Not all G8 level achieve the same quality, even though they be at G8 'level'. I know many children that put in hours of practise but don't have the level of musicality of a G6 that may play less (and content with their musical content in relation to everything else going on in their lives). This does not equate to lack of success!


?? I'm not sure what 'catering for too many levels of ability' refers to. If you think chamber music written 'dull' I'm not sure why you're bothering. A lot of chamber music is very beautiful

I agree a lot of chamber music is very beautiful. But to a 12 year old that is playing pieces that are not stretching, or appeal to their individual taste, who has given up their lunch to attend, who is not inspired by their orchestral teacher etc, who have other children of differing standards messing about, then it may appear as a chore. I'm bothering because I am not delusional to the fact that not everything is going to be to the liking of a young child, and she needs to accept the ups and downs of an activity if she wants to improve her general musicianship.

[NewLife4Me]

If children are playing music surely they should be doing it for themselves.
I have never believed that cajoling, bribing, or any other interference from parents is beneficial.
The children I know like this have and can get to grade 8 the golden snitch for many parents and then give up as soon as parents lose control over their life.
Too many parents expect their children to do things for them and it's cruel at times.
I know children whose parents bribe with computer games, or take things away in an effort for them to practice.
A child will do it if they want to, without the need for any of this.

[JennyOnAPlate]

My 8yo does gymnastics, swimming, violin lessons, brownies, school choir.

She probably averages 10 minutes a week violin practice. Her teacher says she is progressing well.

I did grade 8 flute at 15 on half an hours practice a week (the half hour before we had to leave for my lesson )

[Twinklestein]

at the end of Yr 3 ds was getting 100% on Yr 6 mental maths. The piano stays because it is a challenge. It is the only thing currently that is mentally stretching him

I get that. But it's very much worth finding the instrument that suits the child. No instrument is easy and the intellectual aspects of music itself will stretch him regardless. Plugging away at the piano just because he finds it hard is a bit perverse.

If he changed instruments he might get on quicker and the challenge would grow and develop with him. If you learn quickly you can move on faster to more demanding technique & repertoire. If you find an instrument hard you just get stuck doing the same thing over and over again without progressing.

I'm all for insisting on practice. But only if the child is enjoying it and wants to learn. Otherwise you risk putting them off for life.

[elegantlygrey1]

NewLife4Me trust me, I am under no illusions. He will drop the piano as soon as he can. However I rank it with getting him to brush his teeth. He's good now but for years I used to check to see if the toothbrush was actually wet. Actually, I'd better start monitoring the level of his toothpaste...

Anyway, it is purely because it is the one thing he finds hard, and the lovely piano tutor comes to the house first thing on a Saturday so ds hasn't escaped.