Sick leave in the public sector? (title amended by MNHQ)

[Cutecat78]

Not really an AIBU but wonder what happens in other workplaces as I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

I work for the LA. Loads of redundancies and loads of people going on "long term sick".

Call me cynical but the people who do this (there are two repeat offenders - oh and our manager who was moved to our team and didn't want to be then went on 6 months sick leave on full pay) do not seem stressed they just go off with it or a bad back when they don't like their job (they couldn't possibly leave and work somewhere else as then they might miss out on redundancy in the next wave of cuts - which have been every year for the last 5/6).

Offender one has been suspended for 4 months on a disciplinary - but is now "on long term sick leave" as his GP doesn't seem impartial to handing him out sick notes like smarties. Last year he had 3 months off with a bad back and the year before had about 4 months off with said back but has also had time off being suspended too - he's utterly incompetent and anywhere other than the LA he would have been sacked years ago.

Offender 2 has been off for 7/8 months (1st 6 months full pay, next 6 1/2 pay). Also utterly incompetent (moans constantly about being over worked whilst swanning out of office for 2 hour nail appt etc).

She had been told to come back or she will be dismissed. Although when we questioned where she was our manager informed us "well she has so much leave to take".

Our LA's are going bankrupt yet this is allowed to carry on because of some overly PC policies on acid.

It's so frustrating.

girl I once worked with someone who would, without fail, be ill either the day before or the day after a holiday or weekend away. We all knew this, except for our manager

It's harder to get away with that now I think, in that patterns of absence are more closely monitored. Having said that proving it's not coincidence is probably very difficult.

The answer to work related stress is to address the toxic environment that causes it through management training and providing support for employees within the workplace. Long term sick leave isn't the answer. Likewise with (most) depression, long term sick leave is just about the worst thing to do.

I used to work at a University. One of the staff regularly took long term sick leave for mental health issues.
It was obvious to everyone that his problems were genuine - you only had to talk to him. He would come in for a day or even half a day, then wander off muttering to himself and get signed off again.

However, he was brilliant with an intellect that put everyone else in the shade. He would achieve more in that one day of working than any of his colleagues did during his sick leave. So they kept him on.

Tabsicle-I'm sorry for your experience and clearly in a case like that I wouldn't be expecting you to be ringing regularly. However in the case where one of my staff had a heart attack and was in Intensive care and unable to ring, her next of kin informed me. Which was good because we were concerned as she hadn't arrived to work. Again apologies if you've no next of kin.
If you were off with a bad back however I would expect regular contact.I dont find it acceptable to submit a sick note for 'a painful shoulder and fatigue' (actual example), then not contact your manager for three months, (ignoring expiration date of said sick note), then ring months later and say 'right i'm feeling better, I'll be back on Monday'.
I manage a service for very vulnerable people and I have a duty of care to them to make sure they have consistent and reliable staff to support them, which is primary to me. To get replacement good staff costs a fortune and diverts money from toe he areas in which I would like to spend it-ie on improving the fabric of the building and quality of care for the service users.Second to that is duty of care to my team, (which is also important). I've no issues with people who are sick genuinely.I do with people who don't have the courtesy, when they are able to, to abide by the policies around sickness and keep in touch with their employer.The op's assertion was that some people take the mickey re sick leave.16 years of managing social care settings tells me that in some cases that's correct (but of course not for all people who are off sick, or even, fortunately, most people who are off sick).

In addition to those saying the Op is vile and therefore shouldn't be working with the vulnerable etc because she sounds so bitter-perhaps try to consider the horrendous situation of trying to plan and run vital services for the vulnerable, on a tight budget, and being very committed to that because you want to help people.But then having that derailed by individual staff members announcing that they are 'taking their full sick leave' and buggering off without a thought for the people they are meant to be supporting.It does happen and it's dreadful as a manager when it does as you are then faced with disappointed service users that you are unable to help.
I've sympathy with the staff at times.they get paid poorly to do often stressful work.But at times commitment to the people they are meant to be helping just isn't there which isn't great.

Ive only been off sick once for any length of time, after back surgery and I was surprised at the ease at which I got signed off by the GP. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place with the system for disability benefits so I can understand why they don't want to add to that with additional hassle signing off employed people, but they were actively encouraging me to be off for months longer than I needed to be.

I worked with someone who played the system like a fiddle (private sector company with generous sick pay policy) by taking extended sick leave every time he took exception to something. He ended up being paid a huge amount to leave, which was really galling to those on the team who were working, and being told pay would be frozen for a year

In my last job I worked for a large private sector company. In my unit, our clients were exclusively LAs and HAs. The amount of time their employees took off on long-term sick way exceeded the time that we in the private sector company took off. It seemed to happen every time things got a bit stressful in my experience. I'm sure that there were legitimate cases of illness, but there is no way that so many people could have been so seriously ill completely out of proportion to the levels in the private sector.

Tanith then thay seems a valid reason to keep him on, if on balance he achieves more than he doesn't. That's not an argument for applying this to all cases of people being off sick for long periods. On the whole, if you're not around for a while the job doesn't get done.

I feel for you op, I'm public sector and people take the piss. It's a waste of tax payers money.
When I worked in the private sector people went off sick when they genuinely needed to, I'd say we have double the amount off sick vs private sector.

It isn't the generous sick leave that's the problem (arguably more employers should offer that), its the lack of objective and rigorous scrutiny in applying the policy.

Neither GPs nor Occupational Health are much use in my experience. And managers often aren't incentivised or supported in applying the policy.

Like others, my experience of the private sector is that there simply weren't as many people taking long (or even short) periods of sick leave. You can either conclude:

• fewer people get ill in the private sector or
• the public sector attracts people with health issues or
• public sector jobs are more likely to cause ill health or
• generous sick leave policies that aren't properly managed are open to abuse.

I'd go with the last one.

This makes very interesting reading

Million, I agree. Another point is that public sector can be very inflexible. Someone may be ill and feel up to working from home for a few hours. This is much more likely to be acceptable in the private sector.

I used to be public sector and was actually dismissed whilst on long term sick leave after an exemplary sickness record. I still recognise that there were certain people who were forever taking sick leave and for a very long time it was tolerated. I think that is changing but certainly still exists.

I work in the public sector and had to have my full 6 months paid sick leave last year as I had to have both knees replaced. I worked about 4 weeks between each bout of sick leave(operation)

I have been told that if I were to even take a days sick leave between the date I returned and 12 months after my return I will, for those sick days that I am off only get half my salary.
I will also have to see a Dr (chosen by the department to discuss my health)

A colleague who has been suffering with throat cancer has also had the same warning.

I worked for a LA for 5 years - never known such a sickly bunch of people. Some were so unwell the could only manage a couple of weeks work a year before needing another 6 months off on full pay. A few were genuine, and of course you also got people who'd never have a day off sick in 10 years then got really sick and needed months off but there were lots and lots of piss takers and it was really obvious who they were. So the service and its users and the remaining staff all suffered but there was never any real attempt to sort it out.

Hazelbite. I am sorry for yours and your colleague's illnesses. However you have both exhausted your contractual rights to full pay. Therefore isn't it reasonable that any further absence is at half pay. If a member of staff has been so unwell what's,wrong with a doctor's referral. It demonstrates a duty of care. Action has to be seen to be consistent.

I'm interested to know why the op thinks nothing I being done. It can't possibly be dis ussrd with her

The best way to deal with this is not to criticise people who play the system but not to pay sick pay ( so no pay for the first 3 days off and then SSP under the state scheme - not enhanced sick pay, as required by law). It works really well. those who are too ill to work don't turn up. Those who can work do turn up as otherwise they won't get paid. It is what most employers in the Uk do although not of course many in the state sector who are feather bedded all the way to the bank at present.

I know examples of true skivers milking the system for all they were worth - both teachers but it seems to make mumsnet teacher posters very upset indeed to be reminded it happens so I won't get out the examples but we all know they exist.

It's is not unreasonable at all for employers to expect contact from sick employees. Aside from a few rare exceptions, it is to be expected. The company are paying you. They are paying for 7 hours of your time everyday and are currently getting nothing in return. And some people think it's unreasonable to expect contact once or twice a week?! Extraordinary

deo
Is that a great way to deal with it? Surely that just means lots of people would drag themselves into work when they shouldn't, rather than have a 10% salary cut that month. I'd much rather people took the odd day off when they have d&v, bad colds etc than spread it around the office.

The issue is that GPs have the power to effectively grant a 6 month holiday on full pay and don't have the resources to properly check whether that person really needs to be off work or has memorised a list of symptoms from Google. And there is no incentive for them to really scrutinise it any further, so the system will always be open to abuse by people who fancy half the year off on full pay

If someone can come into an office job with D&V (bearing in mine something like nuro would generally make it impossible for someone to leave the house) why shouldn't they? What do you do at your work, lick eachother or something?

Obviously those whose work policy dictates they must stay away with any D&V are excepted

spare, i t's how most of us have to deal withit. I don't get sick pay. Most people in the UK don't get it (other than SSP if they are employed rather than self employed). I don't think the pubilc sector has any idea what conditions are like for most of us who are paying their wages and funding their pensions. They think enhanced sick pay is some kind of national standard.

And I am always writing that SSP into contracts by the way. Obviously some employment offers better terms but there is no obligation to do so and we are hardly short of people wanting work at the moment so we have a great opportunity for all new joiners only to offer SSP.

I took a day off for a heavy cold a few months ago.

Most of the team had the same cold and took a full week off.

There was widespread shock when I came in after only one day off.

I have friends who work in te MOD who always made sure they took their full 28 (without Drs note) entitlement.

Long term is the same 6 months for them too I think.

My observation about this is that public sector jobs are often lower paid than private sector jobs and private sector is much harder on sick leave.

If you know you are likely to be ill quite often or suffer from stress or MH issues you are more likely to choose work in the public sector because of more generous sick pay

I know there are piss takers but to some extent pubic sector work self selects people in poor health who cannot get work in the private sector and hence are willing to work for lower rates of pay. Physically disabled people are most often found in public sector jobs also.

Add to that fact the lower pay than private sector and public sector workers no doubt feel that taking full pay while sick is justified as recompense.

I think it is more complex an issue that just piss takers work for LA's.

In the end organisations get the workers they pay for.

I worked in LAuth. A woman went long term sick for months upon months (20 ish years ago) with a severe back problem. She was offered, an took up, physio by the job.

She claimed it didn't help at all so remained sick on full pay I believe.

They even offered alternative therapies such as acupuncture offered to take her back on light duties.

She underwent the new treatment but was still 'in too much pain' to return to a desk job on a art time basis.

The jobeventually took out private investigators on her and she was filmed taking part in a show jumping event.

She was a monumental piss taker.

Hmm. I'm quasi public sector. Have had 18 days' sick leave in the last 13 years. 10 relating to a work place accident. Can I just say that I take pride in my work, as do most of my colleagues. My DH is private sector and has only SSP entitlement, except for some insurance we have now let lapse. However his salad had a 0 more than mine. I could earn double in the private sector but I like working locally. Generous sick pay and holiday are therefore part of my overall remuneration package.

I think anywhere, private or public sector that has a very generous sickness entitlement is going to be open to abuse, of course it is. It is naive of people to say it doesn't happen and that everyone who gets signed off is telling the truth to their GP.

I also think that the workplaces that only offer SSP have a lot of employees coming to work thoroughly miserable sometimes, because they've no alternative. I only get SSP and have come into work feeling like shite several times over the years, if I'd have been paid would I have taken some time off - too bloody right!