Sick leave in the public sector? (title amended by MNHQ)

[Cutecat78]

Not really an AIBU but wonder what happens in other workplaces as I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

I work for the LA. Loads of redundancies and loads of people going on "long term sick".

Call me cynical but the people who do this (there are two repeat offenders - oh and our manager who was moved to our team and didn't want to be then went on 6 months sick leave on full pay) do not seem stressed they just go off with it or a bad back when they don't like their job (they couldn't possibly leave and work somewhere else as then they might miss out on redundancy in the next wave of cuts - which have been every year for the last 5/6).

Offender one has been suspended for 4 months on a disciplinary - but is now "on long term sick leave" as his GP doesn't seem impartial to handing him out sick notes like smarties. Last year he had 3 months off with a bad back and the year before had about 4 months off with said back but has also had time off being suspended too - he's utterly incompetent and anywhere other than the LA he would have been sacked years ago.

Offender 2 has been off for 7/8 months (1st 6 months full pay, next 6 1/2 pay). Also utterly incompetent (moans constantly about being over worked whilst swanning out of office for 2 hour nail appt etc).

She had been told to come back or she will be dismissed. Although when we questioned where she was our manager informed us "well she has so much leave to take".

Our LA's are going bankrupt yet this is allowed to carry on because of some overly PC policies on acid.

It's so frustrating.

No am not in London.

It's bloody frustrating, know one individual who got caught out as a bully in the workplace and went off 'sick' for 6 months to basically hide from the consequences. However having them on your Facebook is only going to annoy you, either unfriend or hide their posts. It's a shame for genuine cases though, I know people too frightened to go off for serious stuff for fear of the gossip that goes along with it.

I've worked for companies where this has happened. If the enhanced sick pay is generous (and it was) then it was quite common. Always the same people, who knew the absence policy inside out and who manipulated the system, staying on the right side of it to avoid losing their jobs. Much much less common in the job I am in now where the enhanced sick pay entitlement is very limited. If you claim that you are suffering from stress or back pain, how do you disprove that?

Very annoying for those left behind shouldering their workload. Also annoying because of the unfair consequences for people who are genuinely ill, because as is often the case a few bad apples spoil the barrel. Return to work policies and absence management ends up being beefed up, and the only people who suffer as a result are the genuinely ill who worry about it.

I understand your frustration, two people in my team - both seniors - went on long term sick when changes were made they weren't happy with. Both of these people stood by while lower band staff went through reconfigurations and redeployment without a murmur. When their conditions of work and shift enhancement changed one went off with an old sports injury that had never bothered him as long as I'd known him, the other with stress.

The OP isn't talking about people who are genuinely ill, but people working the system. I have known people like this this, I work in the NHS and have colleagues who are constantly off sick, it is naive in the extreme to say anybody with a sick note must be genuinely ill. I know my mum who was stressed to the point of a breakdown was signed off for two weeks by her Dr and told 'you can't stay off forever you know' when she went back. Some people have the gift of the gab, some people who really are stressed are pushed back to work before they are ready.

Twenty years ago I was on long term sick - I was having a messy divorce and had to leave the area so couldn't get into work but was advised not to quit my job because of the legal aid ( buggered if I can remember why...) Anyhoo, GP colluded quite happily for 7 months until my employer finally terminated me, to our mutual relief, I couldn't believe it took so long. I was only paid SSP, I should point out

I can only comment as someone who got diagnosed with depression very early on into a job and has fought tooth and nail to keep going and doing well in my job without anyone noticing.

It is exhausting. Every weekend my children suffer as I put everything into maintaining myself at work then crumble every weekend.

If circumstances were different and I wasn't new to my role would I have taken sick leave? Knowing what I do now. Yes.

I am sick of being so run down and having nothing left for my family.

Yeah the suspended guy trained to be the Union Rep (but no one nominated him!).

In my breif flirtation with working in an Fe college I was gobsmacked at the amount of sick leave people took. Having always worked in businesses that had fair policies and generous sick pay, I expected it to be about the same. It was bad backs and stress for months and months on end. Seemingly nobody batted an eyelid in any way.

Ah yes, the long-term sick who return the day their pay runs out. It's a familiar scenario to HR and payroll IME. Very frustrating to the employees who have to cover for them as well. No clear answer though, I remember one employee refusing to see the occupational health department when we asked them to!

Am not talking about genuinely sick people.

Cute, I agree totally with you, I think it happens in other places too. I work, not for an LA, I have a chronic long term medical problem which gives me significant problems but I manage to work, I am never off sick. It drives me crazy!

Call me daft, but what does LA stand for?

I think the OP is having a rough ride here. We all sympathise with the genuinely unwell but it seems that sick leave can be abused which only punishes those who are in the office, picking up the slack. Oh and the tax payer in this case but private companies with good sick provision can be the same.

Local Authority

It's because of the people who 'play the system', the ones who know exactly how long they can work until their next bout of 'sick' without triggering a review, that genuinely honest people are subjected to unfair suspicions.

But honest people will always be honest. And may feel very guilty when they shouldn't about being ill because that is their nature. And equally system players will always find the way to play to their advantage, and will do so without an ounce of guilt because they don't care.

You aren't talking about the genuinely sick? But how are you qualified to know who is genuinely sick or not?

You sound like a horrible individual.

I was once signed off for two weeks with mh issues and my private company got rid of me. Would you rather everyone was treated like that?

It happens where I work too, fucking pisses me off when I trigger a meeting because I'm of sick three times in a year (disability related) but colleagues constantly take the piss and go off long term sick when the redundancies loom or when they run out of holiday.

They are not genuinely ill, they are playing the system.

I've worked in the public sector. It was completely as the OP described 20 years ago, the amount of sick leave people took was unreal and medical retirement was dished out left right and centre. Fact. I'm surprised it's till the same now though.

I am married to a police officer and at that time, the medical retirement stats were through the roof, I worked in that area and people were retiring on utterly ridiculous pretences. These days you have to be at deaths door and then some, and you are as likely to be finished on capability with no pension.

I know exactly what you're talking about op. I remember our la had a policy that you're allowed seven days leave per year if your children were off sick (great) everybody would take all seven days, even those who didn't have any children.

To pretend that people can and do get signed off when arguably they shouldn't is either naive or deliberately looking the other way.

Absolutely no idea about these people in the OP's posts, but yes, it does happen.

I have literally heard heard people say 'I'm going to take my 6 months' before even visiting a doctor.

Anyone with genuine reasons for long term sickness leave should be utterly pissed off with those people, for making it harder for people with real problems to be believed, rather than pretending that they don't exist.

LA - local authority. Sick leave can be abused in an LA, but the enviroment also seems to have more than its fair share of bullies who can create very toxic work places that send people off with stress. I once worked for an LA manager who didn't 'believe' in morning sickness, for example. Our LA is a lot tighter on sickness than it used to be.

In the large, several hundred employee company I work for, you only get a rolling 21 day entitlement to full pay whilst off sick. Beyond that, it is discretionary (but the discretion is never exercised to my knowledge). I don't know anyone who has been off for more than 21 days. There is an average level of short term sickness, but few people are ever off for more than a few days.

Conversely, I also work closely with another (very large, several thousand employee) organisation. Most employees get 6-12 months on full pay. And it's not rolling, which means some people are off for most of a year, come back for a week or two, then off again, and so the cycle continues. There are a LOT of people off sick for long periods, including one who has been off now for well over 2 years.

My view is that generous sick pay encourages sickness absence, especially when it isn't rolling. Also some organisations (whether private cos or LAs) just allow these situations to drift when really, if you're not looking at a phased return to work after 6 months, you should be going down the capability route and managing someone out. It's insane to still have someone on the payroll who hasn't worked for 2 years plus.

Op I was a senior manager in a local authority for years. Of course there are genuine cases of long term illness but there was a lot of playing the system and it was enormously frustrating as a manager as it was difficult to manage and challenge. I had a few staff members who went off on stress and/or depression and we're back when their pay dropped them back off when they could get their full six months again.

I know you were getting grief from some posters but only if you're in this envt can you see how rife this problem is.

The situation is hard to remedy. You can send people to occupational health to get an alt perspective but that's usually done far down the line. I think the problem is doctors can be pretty relaxed about giving out sick notes especially if that's a big part of what they do. For instance my doctor based in the centre of a fairly deprived city told me a significant portion of his workload was dealing with stress and depression. So if 20 of the 30 people you see every day are coming to you with stress issues I imagine it can be a bit of a routine just handing out sick notes and a lot of long term notes.

As for performance...Local authorities are pretty crap at performance management and when I was there we didn't do annual reviews or set objectives which makes it harder to pull people up on their performance. And local authorities are highly unionised so there is pressure to try everything before you can dismiss someone; dismissal can lead to litigation which organisations try to avoid so sometimes it's just easier to move poor performing staff around or just put up with it. So you get a workforce with lots if people on the boat and a few people paddling.... Which causes more stress.

I think the only solution to your problem is honestly not to work for a local authority as the culture and competency of many of the staff can be lacking. Sorry just my opinion!

Ah we aren't allowed 7 days for kids anymore - we are only allowed 2 days for a death in the family but then you can get your GP to sign you off....