To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

The way I see it is the heading is true equality, to strive for that we need feminism.

Beneath that we have all the discussions about what leads to the bigger inequalities. So all the little things that happen. People aren't going to all agree on the causes.

I wouldn't be told I'm not a feminist because I do or believe certain things. But I'm also not going to blindly pretend everything is fine for women and girls now, or just agree with every woman just because she's a woman.

lakes presumably you would feel differently if you'd been denied the chance to go to law school and forced to be a sahm. You are okay with your life because you got to choose it. You are benefitting from feminism. Pay it forward and don't be an arse if you do return to work someday.

Gently, this is a site where people discuss their opinions. If you don't want to hear them, then a discussion board is an odd place to hang out.

Actually, in real life, if you told me you were not a feminist I would probably ask you why not, or what feminism means to you. I honestly don't understand how you can want the rights that feminism fights for but be so sure that the word feminist doesn't apply to you. To me, it's like denying that I have brown eyes - it's not a choice, it just is.

HOUSE - Afrobeta [official]: 8 this came on my radio while reading this thread, I think feminism should be about women being visible. Taking up space and being recognised as vital as normal as men, whatever their choices and economic status, this is still a process and there are many issues around intersectional feminism that I find fascinating and challenging, in a very positive way. Feminism is definitely not just about the representation in the board room, are white middle class women a huge improvement on white middle class men? Feminism should be challenging and changing all the time. It is not the answer it is the question.

Sure Katenka, shaving is not a feminist issue. NO way. Men are equally expected to keep their bodies silky smooth.

Thank you for proving my point. Did I say men were expected to keep their bodies smooth, or are you just writing things in suit your agenda.

You said men don't shave if they have manual jobs. I am telling you plenty of men I know do. How that equates to men having to be smooth, I can't fathom.

Shaving body hair can be a feminist issue. Sometimes it's not. It's a personal decision not done for anyone else. Then it's not a feminist issue.

And there is the point. Twisting what people say to make it for your agenda.

Actually I totally agree squash and actually it's quite damaging for men. While we are busy telling women they must watch their drinks/cover up/not get drunk, we are subtly hinting to boys that men can't help themselves.

I don't think the hint was all that subtle on some posts in the 'train poster thread' I mentioned

because it never happened

Well, it happened to me too, or am I just lying?

I was told I couldn't call myself a feminist as I changed my name when I married. It also happened on another forum. It does happen, people are told they aren't feminists due to some choices they make often.

Don't pretend to have a point Katenka

I'll have to go and read that one Blanche.

As a mum of boys I do worry what message it sends to them when we seem to place the blame on women.

It may have happened on another forum.. but it didn't happen on this one u2. Anyone saying that would have been ripped a new one.

NNalreadyinuse - I have no issue discussing opinions, what I take issue with is being told who and what I am. I don't tell you 'you're not a feminist because of x, y and z', and in no other aspect of my life would anyone say such a thing (such as declare 'you're a muslim' or a 'Labour voter'). It's not the same as 'denying you have brown eyes' - that is something physical not an social opinion. To be a feminist is a choice, not an absolute. You say you would question me in real life - don't you think that's rude? Do you often question women on their other life choices, such as breastfeeding or why they work/stay at home and raise children? Do you not think it's rude to question a woman on how she lives her life, if it has no baring on your own, and suggest her views are because she is yet to open her eyes to how things really are?

I was on that poster thread. I felt the poster was okay - to me it was a warning that some men are predatory and you may reduce their ability to opportunistically attack if you are in a group. I did not take it to mean that if you are not in a group, then you will be blamed if any attack occurs. I also didn't like the notion that all men should be treated as potential rapists. I got some criticism for that pov. I don't think it makes me less of a feminist, that I saw a situation differently to another feminist. Women are not an homogenous mass.

That said, victim blaming does exist and those posters who I disagreed with are doing valuable work in pointing out that our laws are not sufficient to prevent this. Something has to be done.

That's what the thread started discussing, Pyjama. A poster that advised people to 'Take Care' with pictures of women on it.

I am sure you can imagine the way it went

I bailed out on it when the 2 sides started throwing the usual insults at each other and posters stopped responding to what had actually been posted in the thread.

I can't say for sure that somewhere on the internet anywhere in the world there might have been someone who said something mean to you... Personally I know many feminists and most of them did take their partner's names. They're happy to discuss it though without acting all defensive though.

squash it has happened here. I was called old fashioned, surrendered, sad, clueless when I said I had taken DHs name when we married... it might have been the added comment that I gave my dad his name back at the same time that set off the worst name calling. Something about saying that every surname is given to us by men, here in the UK, didn't go down well

It may have happened on another forum.. but it didn't happen on this one u2. Anyone saying that would have been ripped a new one.

ah so we have mn confused with another site. Of course...or you could be wrong, of course.

Don't pretend to have a point Katenka

Excellent come back, no admission that you are making stuff up though.

What a shame. Can't think why people feel uncomfortable going on the feminism board here. At all.

Gently I don't think it is rude to have conversations with people in real life about what they think and why. Otherwise, how would we ever get to know each other - we'd all be confined to innocuous shit like talking about the weather.

To me, my belief in my right to equality is as fundamental as any physical characteristic I have. Tbh, I wouldn't ask you about breast feeding because that doesn't impact on anyone apart from you. Women's equality within society affects all of us.

I have not read the whole thread but if I think about my closest girlfriends , most of them had good careers before they married but chose to be SAHMs. With all of them this is genuinely what they wanted and there has been no regrets although one now works school hours as a TA. They see motherhood as a full time worthwhile role and they see their husbands as the provider. I think there are many women like this and I think that often when you read feminist opinions, they often express disappointment in women who feel like this and suggest they are setting a bad example to their children by not working and conforming to male/female stereotypes. I think this is a major factor that puts women off identifying as feminist.

Those of you saying that you have been told in FWR on MN that you are not a feminist because you do XY or Z need to do an advanced search and show us the threads. Or in the future save the threads where this happened so you can display the evidence for future discussions. Because people in FWR really don't go around telling other people they are not feminists for making particular choices.

Sometimes people may point out that a particular choice someone has made is not a feminist choice. I am a die-hard second wave feminist, but I have made some choices all through my life that are not feminist choices, just as I have made some avowedly feminist choices, like keeping my own name when I married. I think most all feminists would say that.

But every time a version of this discussion arises, people will say that they were told they are not a feminist on FWR because of a particular choice they made. And it just does not happen. So if y'all want to keep saying it, provide the evidence.

For fucks sake.

It happened here. Like it or not it's the truth. Believe me or not, your call but I find it a little weird that you don't believe it has ever happened on this forum

It was an AIBU thread I believe. Not FWR.

Hang on.... if some posters see body hair as a feminist issue, which I have some serious sympathy with, it doesn't mean that someone who does shave all pubic hair off childlike and boak is not a feminist! That's bizarre.

I don't really understand why, if a feminist says something or other, that that;s a good enough reason to say I'm not a feminist.

What do people expect from the FWR boards? Red carpets? feeble minded women who wants to be friends with everyone?

Those of you saying that you have been told in FWR on MN that you are not a feminist because you do XY or Z need to do an advanced search and show us the threads

for the love of God. I didn't say in feminism. I clearly said in Aibu.

U2 a black person was damn rude to once, I am still not a racist.

The opposite of being a feminist is someone who thinks the system is just fine and dandy as it is.

That'd be right, Seneca we are lying. Too easy. You could try to accept that some posters on FWR are not as well tempered and polite as you want to think.

I don't need to save anything, go and find anything or prove to you that my experience is real. You may continue to call me a liar.

Maybe, just maybe, some people say such things is because they actually happen. Y'all may just have to accept that... or not. As ever, the choice is yours.