To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

Gently. I can't help but see that you think feminists should be limp as lettuces and accept everyone on the basis they have a vagina!

What? Where did you get that idea from? I'm not the one who's saying 'I don't understand why anyone would chose not to be a feminist'. In fact, one of the reasons I'm not a feminist is because most seem to believe that you should be one if you're a (natural born) woman. I choose not to be one because I don't want to be lumped in with the same people who have such awful views on transgenderism, who use words like 'mansplaining', think shaving and pink are 'giving in to the patriachy' or see any male as a potential rapist. Oh, I know not all feminist are like that, but enough are for me not to label myself one. I don't believe feminism should be an 'opt out' idealism - either you identify as one or you don't. I couldn't care less who does, but I expect not to be judge for saying I'm not.

It's about acknowledging that until 30 years ago shaving your pubes wasn't the norm..now it is. SO it is impossible to say you made that choice without societal pressure.

what social pressure is there in my desire I comfortable when I train?

I've never encountered women like that here either.

I believe in feminist thinking I suppose. I do lots of things that might be seen as unfeminist. For me it's about questioning things. It's about recognising that we are a long way still from total equality. There are still little acts of casual sexism that are almost hidden and they lead to much bigger issues.

I'm not sure how you can really say you're not a feminist unless you're in a bubble and can't see the sexism in our society.

I don't think that you have to be or act in any certain way to think feminist.

Do you shave your head to avoid sweat? Do men work out and shave their arm pits to avoid sweat?

how did you know that it would be more comfortable without hair if you hadn't done it first?

*also one of the points of hair there is to wick away moisture.

There are quite a few feminist threads where A Poster gets told she is misogynist, a failure as a women, deluded, etc, for not agreeing with all that the OP or others have postulated. It happens a lot, if you look at the language of disagreement that is used.

It always amuses me as there are 2 main ways it happens: a poster is called something very feminine as an insult, or something very masculine. As if using gender stereotypes is absolutely the worst

And no, it is rarely done in an amusing, self aware manner. It is usually intended as a nasty discussion stopper and, sadly, is not an unusual occurrence on certain topics.

The dictionary definition of feminism is: a belief in the social, political and economic equality of women.
That must make everyone a feminist, surely!!
Body hair/no body hair; housework/no housework; husbands name/own name....it doesn't matter!
If you believe in equality you are a feminist. END OF. Do NOT allow anyone to tell you that you don't "qualify" for feminism in some way.

Gently, you didn't paraphrase, you made stuff up and attributed it to me.

I don't care what people call themselves. I just don't 'get' how a woman can believe she has a right to vote/earn the same as a man/make her own decisions/receive fair justice and not think she is a feminist. That is what feminism is at its core. I can only think that women who don't see themselves as feminist, while still wanting the above must think they have all these rights already. That is not the same as calling people stupid - possibly they have been very fortunate and not experienced direct discrimination. More likely discrimination is so insidious we have to consciously look in order to recognise it and if you are not looking you just accept some things as normal. It is only now that I am older, I look back on some of the things that happened in my youth and recognise that some if my ecperiences weren't right or fair.

I believe in feminist thinking I suppose. I do lots of things that might be seen as unfeminist. For me it's about questioning things. It's about recognising that we are a long way still from total equality. There are still little acts of casual sexism that are almost hidden and they lead to much bigger issues.I'm not sure how you can really say you're not a feminist unless you're in a bubble and can't see the sexism in our society.

I agree it's about questioning things.

"Do you shave your head to avoid sweat? Do men work out and shave their arm pits to avoid sweat?

how did you know that it would be more comfortable without hair if you hadn't done it first?

*also one of the points of hair there is to wick away moisture."

Loads of men shave body parts for sporting reasons.

It's not The Hague. It was about 18 months ago on thread about feminism in Aibu. It also included people saying you were a familiar if you took your dhs name. Why do I have to prove it? I am talking about my experience here.

because it never happened

NNalreadyinuse - excellent post.

NO loads don't. Some do. And I don't think the majority of men who do sweaty jobs take off any hair either.

I used to believe in 'girl power' but more because of the spice girls!

I have never felt that I was disadvantaged because I was a woman. Men's egos are far too fragile for feminism to have full sway. I guess I believe more in equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunities.

I'm a lawyer by profession (though a SAHM at the moment). I guess most people equate feminism to career opportunities and financial independence.

Having said that women bosses have generally ALWAYS sucked for me. I even refused a job because I just don't want to work for a woman with no children. I also know I am a complete nightmare as a boss .

And as a boss, I was more inclined to hire men, as eventually women would get married and go on maternity leave and just plainly be less productive. It is an observable fact - and not 'sexist'. There would be the few women who were solely career oriented with no kids and they were nightmares to work with.

As I have gotten older, I am even less feminist. I realise that men and women have different roles and it is a privilege as a mother to stay at home. I have never wanted to be 'superwoman' - I didn't 'sacrifice' my career, my priorities changed. I changed my name to my husbands when I married and now I am fully financially dependent on him. I don't need to be emancipated, and I don't need financial independence - I am in a loving relationship - different but equal roles.

Also I haven't read the full thread so this may have been said.but I always lol at the posters who are "too scared" to post in FWR.. they can often be found ripping a poster to shreds in AIBU or on one of these threads, but because they don't agree with feminism they act like they're set upon in FWR.

Having said that women bosses have generally ALWAYS sucked for me. I even refused a job because I just don't want to work for a woman with no children. I also know I am a complete nightmare as a boss . And as a boss, I was more inclined to hire men, as eventually women would get married and go on maternity leave and just plainly be less productive. It is an observable fact - and not 'sexist'. There would be the few women who were solely career oriented with no kids and they were nightmares to work with.

See, women can be assholes too. EQUALITY :)

NO loads don't. Some do. And I don't think the majority of men who do sweaty jobs take off any hair either.

So I am now bowing to social pressure.

Loads of men do. My own dad did. He was in police and hated long pit hair.

90% of the men at my dojo do.

You can say it never happened all you like. I wouldn't be so rude as to call you liar. But then it fits your agenda for it not to be true doesn't it?

Once again, you are assuming, NNalreadyinuse. Just because people don't identify as feminist, doesn't mean they don't recognise the fight women had for the right to vote or haven't recognised any discrimination around them. Some people don't have to wait years to look back and see 'oh, that wasn't actually right'. Does not mean every woman should have to either be a feminist 'because that's what they are, whether they like it or not' or have to explain themselves as to why they choose not to label themselves as one. Every time any woman does so, women like yourself feel the need to ram down our throats that 'well if you believe in x, y and z you are one anyway'. It's rude, even ruder to make assumtions as to why they feel the way they do. We don't need a history lesson, or a bloody dictionary definition of the word - if a woman says 'I'm not a feminist, actually', you can actually just not give your opinion on it.

I just don't 'get' how a woman can believe she has a right to vote/earn the same as a man/make her own decisions/receive fair justice and not think she is a feminist.

That might be because she has that right, whatever the strength of her political thoughts. A woman has as much right to be self absorbed, too busy just living or simply disinterested in any form of politicking as she has to be vegetarian.

Maybe, such a person would feel the same as you do, as they get older and maybe have more time to reflect. But it is wholly understandable that some people just do not care or have the wherewithal to consider anything other than day to day living.

As an example (one that I still have trouble accepting happened in my own family) I have a cousin who once started an amazing row because my DSis and I were talking about pay and promotion equality in primary schools (specifically that men often have the experience of being either ignored or rushed into HT positions). Cousin was irritated because we were so bothered about stuff that just does not matter, apparently, politics is so 'unfeminine' and unattractive.

Our Nana, who was an early, no nonsense, practical, working class feminist of the early 1900s, would have been furious with that statement.

Now, I know I should have tried to educate her. Shown her the error of her ways. But she is a grown woman, so I chose to respect my cousin's decision to be -bloody clueless-- apolitical, and I would never tell her that she is in any way stupid, cossetted or socially blind.

(I just secretly judge her to be irretrievably lost to Gen Jones morass )

Gently. I can't help but see that you think feminists should be limp as lettuces and accept everyone on the basis they have a vagina!

What? Where did you get that idea from? I'm not the one who's saying 'I don't understand why anyone would chose not to be a feminist'. In fact, one of the reasons I'm not a feminist is because most seem to believe that you should be one if you're a (natural born) woman. I choose not to be one because I don't want to be lumped in with the same people who have such awful views on transgenderism, who use words like 'mansplaining', think shaving and pink are 'giving in to the patriachy' or see any male as a potential rapist. Oh, I know not all feminist are like that, but enough are for me not to label myself one. I don't believe feminism should be an 'opt out' idealism - either you identify as one or you don't. I couldn't care less who does, but I expect not to be judge for saying I'm not.

To be honest I'm pretty sure the feminist movement isn't lesser for having you and your bizarre notions of what feminism is.

She does have a point, given some of the more recent threads across, the boards, though, Posie.

If a woman's first or main exposure is the highlights of some of the more accessible threads here I wouldn't blame them for running for the hills.

Where has this idea come from that feminists see every man as a potential rapist?

And why do discussions about women's issues always get turned into "but what about the men?"

I care deeply about men's issues, I'm married to one and I gave birth to two so I'm quite invested but men's issues don't take away from women's issues.

Sure Katenka, shaving is not a feminist issue. NO way. Men are equally expected to keep their bodies silky smooth.

The label "feminist" seems to have a huge amount of hate and derision attached to it. I am a feminist, I don't mind saying so, and I don't think that this label should come with a huge heap of assumptions about what kind of person I am. You'd need to ask me a lot more questions to find out what kind of feminist I am, and I might not be the same kind of feminist as the next person who is a feminist. But underlying it all is the basic definition of a belief in the social, political and economic equality of women, as quoted earlier. I don't find that a particularly contentious starting point.

Where has this idea come from that feminists see every man as a potential rapist?

Surely it's the ones who warn you what to wear/ to watch your drink/ to not lead him on... that think all men are rapists?

Pyjama there is a current example of that hyperbole on the 'train station poster' thread. It got a bit shouty, as such threads have a tendency to.

There must be many posters who shy away from such issues because of the, erm, very determined language used on such threads.