To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

Ten years ago I came to MN, there was a feminist discussion, a hugely heated and passionate exchange. I thought I was a feminist. I would say I was a feminist.

dittany was very very mean to me she pointed out a huge flaw in my thinking quite rightly and wasn't mean, she was right and with one swift move she revealed some of my misogynist thinking. I am eternally grateful to that woman.

I think it's likely that some people who find MN feminist boards frightening are just scared of their thinking being showed up to the light.

The hair/SAHM thing falls into feminism in a wider context. It's not about individuals making choices bound by the system we exist in, it is more the pursuit of answers to questions about why women find themselves in certain roles and how it may limit us.

I'm not a feminist because I don't think men and women are the same

But feminism doesn't clam they are. It's about equality of opportunity, so men and women having access to the same opportunities in life, being treated the same under law (eg no workplace discrimination), having equal access to education and healthcare etc etc.

My surname was changed as a child too. I felt no connection to my name, it was just a random choice my mum made after my dad died. I liked the idea of a family name so took DH's name when we got married.

Lemony, do you disagree with values outlined in the basic definition of feminism as mentioned up thread? Are all aspects and types of feminism equally abhorrent to you?

Lemony- who told you you had to be a feminist? And what sort of things do feminists say that don't represent you views?

But we are different and expecting in equality in some areas is just ridiculous.

I believe in equal opportunities but feel like many feminists don't tbh.
I believe some expect more than equality.

Take sport for example.
My friend argues that men and women should be paid the same for football and tennis yet not have to play each other and have different games.
Equality would see them playing together irrespective of gender/sex not segregated as this isn't equal.

So I guess I'm not a feminist in most people's eyes. But I tell my dd to wear her "Girls can't do what?" T - shirt very proudly as she enters a male dominated career.
I tell her she can do what she wants to and have brought her up with the expectation that there are no specific gender roles anymore.

I am still puzzled as to why it's such a horrific and abhorrent "label" that people get so upset about it being used to describe their views, when those views are clearly basic tenets of feminism.

Posie I don't spend a lot of time on FWR but I'd agree with you that what people see as bullying is having their views challenged.

Some people get hostile when a feminist issue is debated on Chat or AIBU and demand that the OP takes it off to FWR. Or they say: 'X many pages? Is this still going?'

Some of those people say they have FWR hidden, like as if that should matter. Like I said, I don't go on FWR much but I might like to read or contribute to a thread.

If it bothers them that much they can always hide the thread. They've already demonstrated that they know how to do it.

"I felt feminism excluded me when I once read about a bunch of feminists protesting outside a lap dancing club. I felt that they were just bullies, they wanted it closed because they didn't agree with it. "

I'm sorry but the person who posted this is deluded. It's been well proven that these clubs increase sexual harassment for women in the area. How on earth a woman can defend these clubs is beyond me!

I'm sorry New Life but I don't get your example of sport?

I don't know any feminists who think men and women should compete against each other in a sporting capacity. What does this have to do with equal pay? Are you saying that women can't be paid the same as men for doing the exact same thing unless they compete against them? Why?

Lemony- this is something I really want to understand. I'm not being deliberately thick, or anything- please could you have a go at explaining to me?

Why do you object to being called a feminist when you agree with everything anyone's said on here about what being a feminist means? Why do you feel so strongly about the word that you don't want to use it?

How on earth a woman can defend these clubs is beyond me!

Because the poster who talked about it performed in one destinysdaughter.

I don't understand why she couldn't just acknowledge the protesters as she passed their picket and get on and do her burlesque dance, but I suppose we come back to alleged bullying by nasty feminists.

Notice her use of burlesque there. It's empowering for women who are over size 12 and gives them an opportunity to get their kit off while men are staring slack-jawed at them too.

I don't see why her right to bump and grind and the right of men - and women she said - to watch her do it should trump the desire of other people (again men and women) not to have such an establishment in their neighbourhood.

But that's probably because I'm a nasty feminist.

I must be a nasty feminist too because I agree with you limited.

I loved that the poster said the protesters were doing it in the name of "feminism" - as if protesting strip clubs was a totally Out There issue for feminism.

They weren't advocating a celery boycott, FFS! Strip clubs are slap bang in the middle of feminist issues!

Lemony tbh it's a viewpoint I don't really understand but I can see you feel very strongly about it. I'm an atheist, but I don't always agree with what certain famous atheists will say. That doesn't make me reject the label of atheist for myself, as everyone will have their own individual interpretation of atheism whilst agreeing on the fundamentals.

Bertrand et al, I never said I was bullied - I have thicker skin than that. It was more than one poster on a thread and the point was made several times. It did not run away and cry in a corner - I just decided that I simply did not have the time or energy to engage with such narrow minded puritanical zealots. Feminism as it is portrayed on Mumsnet is skewed and alienates more moderate voices. Not all of us feel the need to bang on about the patriarchy all the time.

And again, i will leave this conversation as I simply don't feel the need to attack and defend with every sentence.

Strip clubs are slap bang in the middle of feminist issues!

They're slap bang in the middle of people's neighbourhoods too

Notice that the first protester to be quoted was a man, though he might be a nasty feminist too - I welcome all comers.

The Evening Standard introduced the tired old issue of property prices but really, this didn't sound like a suitable business in a residential area and if they wanted to open up in my road I'd be writing to the council too.

The piece is from 2009. There were quite a few such stories then. Perhaps people who wanted to open empowering lap dancing emporiums have stopped doing it and found some other way to allow women to express themselves.

Lemony I also have issues with the stance that women who make accusations of rape should be believed no matter what, even though we all know that women are just as capable of lying as men are. I totally get that you wouldn't want to be associated with the women who would falsely accuse your father.
The thing is though, those women are not representative of all feminists. At our core, we believe in equality of opportunity for women but beyond that, we are all individuals with our own differing viewpoints on lots of things. I think there is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you totally reject the word feminist as a description.
Feminist doesn't mean you think men and women are exactly the same, but we are equal. I am a sahm, I changed my name on marriage ( cos I liked his). It doesn't make me less of a feminist.