Aibu to think that using financial penalties to punish people for not having money should be banned??

[Lanark2]

You know, banks who charge you more money when you don't have enough money, councils who fine people for sleeping rough, dvla fines for people who struggle to pay car tax and council tax fines for people who can't pay their council tax. Its completely mental.. Isn't it?

Quite the detective aren't we..credible alternatives to what? Keeping the poor in their place and punishing them for 'not being responsible' or managing behaviour?

Do you need my solution, before you have an opinion? That's super lazy.

Why are you paying over 800 per year in car tax? Or is that a one off payment?

Do you not work full time? Are these three part-time jobs?

Dink dink dink dink de-de dink dink dink...might as well sing as talk to you, you just can't believe can you! All those supermarket workers, all those call centres, all those factories, all those coffee and fast food chains, all those huge poverty stricken areas, all that crime, all that despair, you can't possible believe or understand that it is down to poor functioning businesses low pay and exploitative charging can you.. You think that secretly all those huge numbers of people would have massive overspilling bank accounts if they just stopped dropping tenners?!?!?..seriously if you are so financially aware, how come you can't get this?

Its because of the Ferrari you idiot, come on, put some thought into it I can easily afford one with all that freedom in the budget..

Yes I do - because at the moment you're just ranting about the unjustness of it all and refusing to give credible alternatives to the problems as you see them. Now that's super lazy.

So - do you live in Lanarkshire? If you do then you'll know that there are plenty of low cost alternatives to living in sub standard rural accommodation.

Because, as with many other posters here, I am aware that the reality lies somewhere between the two polemics you offer up.

Having been piss poor, been put on stop by banks, utility companies, dumped on by employers etc, I know that, without kids and other complicating factors, the only person who could fuck it up more than it already was, was me. So, I changed how I lived/spent. It might have taken me years to get out of that NMW job, deprived area and, maybe more importantly, out of the rut my life, my expectations, had fallen into.

I am also pissed off, on behalf of friends who work in those call centres, coffee shops etc. As they like their jobs and manage to live within their income without any attempt to blame The System when they fall into any arrears.

Don't divert the issue.

£830 a year car tax and £840 insurance - what are you driving?

£900 a month is 30 hours a week minimum wage, so not full time.

Me? What issue? The issue that you are being a bit of a plank?

You are being illogical, and I suspect you know it!

Do you live in Lanarkshire or not? That's not diverting the issue - that's pointing out there are alternatives. Your figures are just not stacking up.

This thread is about the use of financial penalties as the only way many organisations use to manage the behaviour of those without money already. Why do they think this is effective?

My figures do stack up, your optimism about them doesn't.

And Lanark is about living in a city of perpetual darkness called 'Unthank'. The poor can read.

No, they don't stack up - or at least, they don't if you're complaining about not having enough money.

Yep, written by Alasdair Gray who taught in Lanarkshire. Do you live there too?

Lanark if you're only taking home about £900 pcm you can't be doing more than 35 hours a week. Maybe you could get an evening / weekend job to supplement your income?

And why are you spending so much on car tax? Do you have lots of cars?

If you have a penalty for not paying a bill but then pay it, I think the penalty should be reversed. For example if you get a ccj for none payment of council tax when you've paid it back the ccj should be taken off.

Lanark having now read a couple of threads you've started I think you need to get some professional help.

You are clearly not coping with life, asking people to support you in blaming the rest of the world for everything you perceive to be wrong with your life isn't going to change that.

I'm sure if you ask nicely there will be someone on MN who can tell you how best to access the help you so clearly need.

This thread has moved on a bit but to respond to Mannery

Yes bank charges can be deemed fair if you have received, read and understood the T&C's. This particular occasion happened when I was a very young and inexperienced adult. I was 21 with a mortgage and hadn't set my DD's to a date that suited when I got paid. I politely complained in the hope they could see the genuine error and that it was a first offence (rather than reckless spending) and give me a good will gesture. I even asked to spread the cost, nope. The charges just meant I went over each month. A hard lesson learnt and I gave my custom to another bank.

Maybe the problem is a lack of awareness/education with finances. If your parents don't teach you (my mum was a single parent and didn't have to manage her finances) then people sometimes have to learn the hard way. It really sucked at the time and felt disproportionate to what I had spent to cause the charges. One off fine I could have swallowed better.

To be honest the system is stacked against you if you have a limited income. It isn't impossible to cope but it becomes very much harder and a minor miscalculation can cause massive issues.

It's even worse if you are in benefits as you don't t money on a set date a month so it's difficult to set up direct debits (but not impossible).

Miscalculating and ending up with a £1 overdraft which you then get charged £30 is still overkill imho.Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut and leaving the scattered pieces everywhere.

Been there and done that.

I do my best but I am not perfect, how many of those berating the OP top up their income by using credit cards or overdrafts to help manage their monthly finances?

I have no credit card, have no overdraft or any other way of coping in an emergency. That's the difference between being in a limited income and having a reasonable one. It makes the charges so much harder to avoid.

Like I say it isn't impossible...but it's harder.

Look, calm down and try and have a reasonable discussion.

We are trying to help you get yourself out of a rut.

Yes the system sucks. Yes, life can be expensive and there will always be those at the bottom and those at the top. We cannot change the system, quickly anyway, but individuals can look at themselves and make the best of theiriindividual situation.

Yes, housing can be ridiculously costly and childcare is crippling. But you don't have these issues so you should be able to survive perfectly adequately. We are trying to help you do that.

But a bank cannot charge you £30 for gong £1 over your agreed limit, or unagreed for that matter. It is set out really clearly, if you are suffering financial hardship you can get the fees back/waived.

But if you ignore the issues and don't talk to your bank then, I suppose, you will accrue penalties.

And no, when utterly skint I had no overdraft or credit card, the banks wouldn't offer them. Not saying that living on benefits is easy and people don't drown, but the assertion that it is always unfair is ridiculous, self absolving and helps nobody.

Unfortunately OurBlanch I tried that with the bank I now detest. It was one error on my side, I accept that.

I called as soon as I realised, no help. I wrote and got a reply saying sorry but no please refer to your T&C's. I understand that it was my fault but it caused me to go further into debt (albeit small) to
stop the charges escalating.

I acted immediately, but they took no pity and it was all because I had a DD at the wrong time of the month.

That's another reason why I had a sour taste in mouth. Not all banks are that hard, some allow you one grace.

Anyone I did get a weekend job to get me back to a good financial place. Was working FT in the week too, it didn't feel fair. In the grand scheme of things I feel very privileged to have got a handle on it and now stalk my online bank account.

As an FYI for those who seem to struggle with the idea that car insurance couldn't possibly be that expensive, because I have a medical condition my insurance is always at least £600pa

Why attack one person who suggests financial penalties for already very poor people is a stupid idea?

OP I agree with you on most points. I've been in horrible situations due to my finances including council tax baliffs at my door threatening to take away my LL belongings. Debt isn't solved as simply as 'live within your means'.

I agree with you, OP. Being poor is expensive. You often can't afford to pay for things on cheaper plans (eg. insurance has to be monthly not annually, gas/electric on a card not by DD) and you can't afford to bulk buy things like food, or pay for longer-lasting but more expensive clothes.

DP and I had this a couple of years ago. We both work with food and both got the same virus within 24 hours of each other. We were both off work for a week (three days of being ill, plus two days extra because of the 48 hour rule) which meant we lost 1/4 of our monthly income. Luckily we had savings but if we hadn't, I can easily see how it could have spiralled out of control.

Charging people for not having enough money isn't the answer. Maybe not allowing people to spend money they don't have would be the solution, instead of letting them go into overdrafts they don't have, so they have to pay to be broke. Who does that help, exactly? I would rather pay a bounced DD fee to say, British Gas than pay daily overdraft fees to my bank.