Questions and discussion about the costs involved in rolling out the Meningitis B vaccine

[Myredcardigan]

Partly a TAAT but obviously it's all over the news and Sugar has specifically asked me to start this thread to begin constructive debate.

So, from my pov, I totally get the massive cost implications of vaccinating all those under 11. However, id like to hear from anyone who is in the know and can tell me if link to data showing what the actual cost would be. I'd also like to see what the cost implications of treating children with the disease are. Both the acute care, which will cover all infected children, but also the long term costs both medically and educationally of treating those children lucky enough to survive but sadly left with life long disabilities. I know from an educational POV that a non mainstream state school place can cost 40% more. Sometimes much more. But I have no idea on the medical side. Questions such as,

-How much does it cost the NHS in acute care costs to treat a child with Men B for 1wk

-What about non acute NHS recovery support inc OT

-If you are the parent of a deaf child or are deaf yourself, can you comment on the cost implications of supporting your child (rightfully) both medically and educationally?

-Can anyone comment on the NHS and educational costs involved in supporting a child who is an amputee?

Any other relevant stats and info please add to the thread. Please remember that Sugar has asked for this thread to be put out there. Of course, from a personal perspective I don't think any of this should matter but should the petition get its debate then this is what they'll be looking at.

Here are symtoms lists but remember the rash doesn't always appear
www.meningitis.org/symptoms

Another child has died. 7 year old little boy. BBC news page

Hi, firstly, my deepest sympathy to those of you affected by meningitis on this thread, it must be a hard thread to be involved in, but your input is very important. A pp hinted at there needing to be more info on the vaccine, and I think that's true. On the Bexsaro site ( www.bexsero.co.uk/healthcare-professional/faqs.htm) they mention a waning in immunity after just 8 months. I can't get the original data, so don't know how much of an issue this might be. The consensus seems to be that scientists don't know how long after the vaccine immunity lasts yet. If that's the case, it could be that babies vaccinated now are non immune by 3, or 5, or 7. That obviously has major implications for a catch up campaign. I've signed the petition, and wholeheartedly support another review of available evidence, but think realistically we may be told that note evidence is needed before its extended any further. I wrote a blog piece on it, which explains my positron more. I hope I haven't upset those who have suffered.

motherbug.com/science-of-kids/meningitis-b-the-vaccine-debate/

Mother This thread is about the cost to the NHS of children maimed and disabled by MenB as opposed to the cost of vaccine
I have lost a child to MenB I donate to all the charities and am up to date on information.
Yes you have upset me and No I will not read your blog
Until you have watched your child die from this awful awful illness you do not understand
Kindly read the thread title

Thanks for that motherbug. Really interesting.

Worth listening to Steve Dayman being interviewed on Radio 4 today (5.40pm approx) as he dissects a couple of those arguments.

Apologies Sugar21, I thought the thread title said cost involved in rolling out the vaccine? I really didn't set out to offend, and of course Sony understand your suffering.

Will give it a listen Littleham.

Thank you for sharing your blog motherbug

I have signed the petition as well but at this point I'm not in a position to get all five of my children vaxxed but after reading more I'm on the fence anyway.

Sugar I can't imagine how this thread makes you feel, but people want to discuss this, from all angles. I really think that if this thread is hurting you that it might be a good idea for you to hide it? I say that really gently and it is meant kindly. I don't blame you for your feelings or reactions, I can't even begin to imagine the pain you are going through but people are going to discuss this and it's not going to keep right on track and I really don't want this thread to add to your pain

I asked the OP to start the thread but it is not an anti vaxx thread.
The cost of a jab is £20 to the NHS
link shows costs to NHS of a child who survives

Meningitis Septicaemia
Acute costs
26 days PICU, Shunt insertion
operation and 155 days on
rehabilitation ward
Acute costs
31 days in PICU, amputation
operations, multiple skin graft
operations, 155 days on paediatric rehabilitation ward
Outpatient appointments
Paediatricians, neurologists, neuro-
surgeons, orthotist, opthalmologist,
occupational therapists, physio-
therapists, speech and language
therapists, hydrotherapy
Epilepsy management
Cochlear implantation
Shunt revision surgery
Specialist equipment
operations, 155 days on paediatric
ward
Outpatient appointments
Prosthetists, occupational
therapists, physiotherapists, plastic
surgeon, orthopaedic
surgeon, paediatricians, CAMHS
Behavioural management
Prosthetic provision
Corrective surgery
Specialist equipment to children who have survived MENB

www.menigitis.org/ctc

As most people's objections seem to be the cost it is worth listening to Steve Dayman as he questions the costing formula used to calculate the price of the vaccinations and reckons that it would be much cheaper. Frankly he sounded more plausible than the other party.

Obviously any tests would be done first as to which groups a vaccination would work on best (don't think anyone would argue against that) but he seemed to believe that it would protect all age groups.

sugar - hope you are ok.

Yes am ok 1234
Is the thread title clear?

I'm not sure what they used to calculate the price of vaccination (will give that a listen) but in terms of treatment, what the JCVI included is detailed here. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/294245/JCVI_Statement_on_MenB.pdf. They first rejected the vaccination, even for babies, based on cost, but after much hard work by the Meningitis charities they changed what they included (so started to include costs of some of the rarer complications, impact to families etc). So there has been an improvement in how JCVI cost meningitis, but I doubt know whether that was satisfactory for the Meningitis charities, or a compromise.

I'm so sorry about your loss Sugar, your daughter isn't a statistic to any mother.

The thread title indicates a discussion as to the financial pros and cons of rolling out the Men B vaccine.

The trouble is that it is difficult to weigh up the financial implications directly to you / long term medical care costs for the country against the cost of the vaccinations.

....although it is not difficult for me to weigh up as you have probably noticed!

Thanks tattyteddy
1234 Yes hard to estimate costs. I am being interviewed tomorrow by the press

You will be brilliant sugar. You are very brave.

1234 I am jittery but I will answer the questions the best I can

1234,,that was indeed an interesting piece, thank you. Does anyone know if the Meningitis charities were happy with the way JCVI calculated costs in the end? Or is the count the cost campaign very much still pushing for more costs to be included? I do also wonder about the longevity of the immunity the vaccine provided , which doesn't seem to be discussed often. Obviously if it's decoded to vaccinate children up to 5, but then it turns out immunity is short lived, there may be extra costs in the way of extra boosters required to protect children through really childhood. That's what I was getting at in my previous post. Of duration of protection is unknown, it's hard to estimate cost of vaccination.

Good luck for your interviews, sugar.

As an aside, I would urge anyone trying to weigh up the pros and cons to be cautious about data provided by medical charities. They are often hand-in-glove with pharmaceutical companies. However, I personally don't trust the government either...
Dr Ben Goldacre writes very well about this disturbing issue.

Thank you Mother There is a very interesting study done by the FDA but I can't seem to find a link. Maybe I should google a bit more

No idea about the vaccine longevity Motherbug - sorry can't help you there. Not sure who would know this information.

But speaking as someone who has had a child in intensive care being looked over by a Meningitis specialist (although it turned out to be sepsis instead) I would take any vaccine even if it needed a booster. I'm paying for my children to be vaccinated anyway if this doesn't come in.

Well, the manufacturer states immunity begin to fade 8 months after vaccination, but I can't get the original data, so not sure how much by, or whether it's an issue. From what I've read, I'm not sure anyone really knows until the vaccine has been out there a while.

I can totally understand anyone wanting this vaccine, especially those who have been touched by meningitis or septicaemia of any kind.

But in terms of cost to NHS, that'll differ massively depending on how many boosters it'll take to get a child born now protected until age 5, or 7, or 11. Without that information it's going to be hard for anyone to put forward a properly costed argument I would have thought?

All I can find by searching is the phrase 'no further booster need established'.

So it is either not needed or is unknown. You are probably best off ringing someone.

As to the cost to the NHS - we do all sorts of good expensive things like reviving my very elderly relative five times against her wishes when she had a terminal disease / or IVF / or other expensive drugs so personally I would put vaccinating the under 5's at least fairly high up the list. But it isn't up to me.

Yes, I'd also put vaccinations high up the list.

I think that as time goes on it may well become evident that boosters are needed. But we boost for DTP every 5 years (?) in childhood (and for tetanus evry 10y throughout life), and I guess that over time the cost of those vax has come down.
Then there's the fact that a MenB vaccine that achieves high coverage may induce considerable herd immunity by reducing carriage rates - it's happened with MenC IIRC.