Questions and discussion about the costs involved in rolling out the Meningitis B vaccine

[Myredcardigan]

Partly a TAAT but obviously it's all over the news and Sugar has specifically asked me to start this thread to begin constructive debate.

So, from my pov, I totally get the massive cost implications of vaccinating all those under 11. However, id like to hear from anyone who is in the know and can tell me if link to data showing what the actual cost would be. I'd also like to see what the cost implications of treating children with the disease are. Both the acute care, which will cover all infected children, but also the long term costs both medically and educationally of treating those children lucky enough to survive but sadly left with life long disabilities. I know from an educational POV that a non mainstream state school place can cost 40% more. Sometimes much more. But I have no idea on the medical side. Questions such as,

-How much does it cost the NHS in acute care costs to treat a child with Men B for 1wk

-What about non acute NHS recovery support inc OT

-If you are the parent of a deaf child or are deaf yourself, can you comment on the cost implications of supporting your child (rightfully) both medically and educationally?

-Can anyone comment on the NHS and educational costs involved in supporting a child who is an amputee?

Any other relevant stats and info please add to the thread. Please remember that Sugar has asked for this thread to be put out there. Of course, from a personal perspective I don't think any of this should matter but should the petition get its debate then this is what they'll be looking at.

You cannot put a price on anyone's life. Sugar and Daisy have lost everything. It's not a matter of economics, it's saving families from tragedy.

The same viruses that can cause meningitis can also cause ear infections without causing meningitis. There might be unexpected advantages to giving children this vaccine if we reduce annoying non lethal conditions like ear infections/ glue ear. The men b vaccine might save more money than anticipated.

1234 - I really didn't read that link that way at all. I got the impression that they want to see evidence that it works as well before they decide what the best way forward is: That may mean extending the current vaccination to other age groups.

It's the JCVI that will be advising whether or not to introduce it.

ReallyTired, yes, it might and they'll see that as the results from this initial roll out come in. They can't just guess these things though.

I think if the JCVI / Government made an announcement that they will vaccinate on a rolling out basis following the recommendations of the Meningitis Research charities that would be perfect.

Dinosnores Good factual post. That is so right, the paeds were pumping Daisy with everything in their power. Didn't work illness overcame her but they did everything they could, I know that.
I now donate and recieve monthly news letters from meningitis trust, brilliant charity.

"I'm not sure how it would help though in that golden hour as you are going to throw broad spectrum antibiotics at the patient anyway in the hope of saving them. It will be useful to tailor treatment later on, but I can't see it helping straightaway."

nods

From my recent experience of being admitted with a major infection/heading for sepsis (not meningitis though), once they see that level of inflammation markers/white blood cells/fever/etc. they just hammer vast quantities of antibiotics into you and wait for the diagnostic tests to come back later (they never actually identified the bug that hit me, though did rule out quite a few).

Snap! Same happened with ds.

The quality of basic care at this hospital is a scandel.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3456635/Come-morning-unless-dying-Patients-north-London-hospital-told-home-doctors-couldn-t-450-arrived-E-day.html

A three year old boy died of meningitis because of inadequate care.

Well, yes, that's what they have to do at the moment. It's hardly ideal though - hence the need for a quicker test. Meningitis.org funded the research so they seem to recognise the need for it as well.

A quicker test would be fantastic but so would prevention.

Sorry, x-post. No child should die because of misdiagnosis. :( His parents did the right thing and took him to the right place.

There are lots of virus/ bacteria that are not known to science that can kill a child. Doctors are not going send home an obviously very sick child because there is no clear diagnosis. There is no magic drug to cure meningitis. Getting a child to survive viral meningitis is often down to extremely skilled nursing. A child who is severely ill needs skilled nursing whatever is causing their illness.

I think you mean bacterial meningitis RT, viral meningitis is the much less serious one. Most cases are mild and can be treated at home - NHS

The child in that article was sent home because they misdiagnosed him with Chickenpox.

The charities Meningitis Now and the Meningitis Research Foundation hailed the “overwhelming” response to the petition and said it had helped to raise awareness of a killer disease. Meningitis Now said it would now like a “catch-up” programme for under- fives.

Viral meningitis can be severe according to your link. Viral meningitis can kill in rare cases. Mumps, Chickenpox, Measles and the coldsore virus can all cause viral meningitis. Newborn babies are particularly vunerable. Meningitis can also be caused by fungus.

Surely parents would only present at A and E if their child was very sick. A hospital is not going to turn away a child who is seriously sick just because they have a viral infection. (I suppose that there is an issue with people presenting A and E because they cant get a GP appointment.)

There is at least one known anti-vaxxer posting on here, btw. They are being extremely disingenuous and frankly distasteful to pretend otherwise.

As for the Men B vaccine not being suitable for children under ten, about 75% of all medicine (not just vaccines, all medicine) used in paediatrics is unlicensed for use in children, because clinical trials tend to be conducted on adults, although this is slowly changing.

Sugar I can't even begin to imagine what you are going through. I've signed the petition and hope things will change.

I just want to cry
Im trying to help people FGS

This is always going to be emotive. However, this thread specifically asked people to give their thoughts on costs. Obviously, a thread like this is going to be distressing for people like sugar who has gone through an unspeakable tragedy for which they are no words.

Just in case anyone thinks I'm anti-vax, I am not. Mine all fully vaccinated and I'd like them to have the meningitis B one. I am very frightened of vaccination side effects due to a family history. I've weighed the risks and gone for all available jabs but I worry about what would happen if my child was the vaccine damaged one. This would have costs, of course.

Zariyah Thank you I understand
It is the post before my last that has me upset and the fact that the poster is probably correct

Sorry sugar. I didn't want to upset you and wasn't sure if I should mention it or not as I don't want to derail the thread.

Its ok Ipity its the fact that you are right that upsets me.

ReallyTired, I was just quoting what it said in the article you linked to - that he was sent home because he was misdiagnosed with CP. re viral meningitis - my point was that it was less serious than bacterial meningitis (which it is - even in its severe form) so it doesn't require 'extremely skilled nursing' to survive it as you said in your previous post. I just thought you'd made a mistake and wrote viral instead of bacterial.

Zariyah, she's talking about me. I'm not an anti-vaxxer either though - it's just an accusation that gets thrown at anyone on MN who has any questions/concerns about vaccines/delays vaccines/ selectively vaccinates or has any issue with any vaccine or its timing in the UK vaccine schedule tbh.

It should be fairly obvious to anyone on this thread or any other that I am not against the introduction of the MenB vaccine. I hope that it does reduce cases of MenB, deaths and disability. I just happen to agree with the experts that it makes more sense to 'wait and see if it works' in the most at risk group rather than rolling it out to the other age groups right now. Unfortunately, sugar seems to be taking this as a personal insult, which it isn't intended to be.

That is great that you are prepared to agree with the experts seeing as the Meningitis Research Foundation and Meningitis Now (who employ many of those experts) are calling for all under 5 year olds to be vaccinated for Meningitis B. And for research into the effect on teenagers.

The Government are now making noises about factoring in the huge costs of looking after children left damaged by Meningitis B, which as we have discussed can be £3 Million for bad cases.

A very positive outcome if that happens.

Well I've said exactly what I agree with the experts on throughout the thread so it shouldn't really come as a surprise. :)

If the vaccine is found to be effective and they decide to roll it out in the lower risk groups then great. From that link I gave you to meningitis.org upthread, they recognised that it only scraped through for the under 1s so they know they need more information about effectiveness for their campaign - which makes sense to me.

Seeing as there is a vaccine shortage (which GSK have said they want to sort out by summer 2017) I don't think there will be any changes before then anyway.

Sorry, in case that last paragraph worries anyone - there are enough to cover the NHS schedule.

I think it scraped through because of the cost benefit analysis that was being used. From what I gather they were not factoring in the tremendous costs of looking after children left disabled by Meningitis B.

Funnily enough they are making noises about tweaking the cost benefit analysis.

And anyway life doesn't always come down to cold cost benefit analysis. The carnage created by Men B spreads through the whole family and causes untold emotional / financial pressures - on wider society as well as the immediate family.