To find this poster in a train station wrong?

[megadude]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I'd be interested to read your opinions about this poster. I don't want to say right now what I think about it, as I'd like to know how you'd interpret it.

TIA,
Megadude

It's also good reminders for more vulnerable users of train stations and younger people. If a poster doesn't apply to you ignore it but if it reminds one young girl to not let her drunk friend wander home alone then it is worth it.

Yes please. Re-educate these neanderthal men.

The poster isn't educational though, as it doesn't give any suggestions as to how to be vigilant.

The majority of men are not rapists and don't need telling how not to be one! Those that are, will not be put off by a poster telling them not to do it.

Not all men are rapists, but all rapists are men.

So, do you target a poster at the sex that commits the crime, or the victims of said crime?

The Stay Safe Wimmin campaigns are dangerous and shift responsibility away from the perpetrator and onto the victim.

There is an awful lot of internalised misogyny on this thread.

Jeanne, you said it's not really true, when I said the majority of men are not rapists. Or did I misunderstand you?

I have a son, who walks his very drunk female friends home at night, I have brothers and a husband and a dad, none of whom need to be told not to rape people.
As a younger woman, I was frequently out with male friends, who did not attack me when I had been drinking.
I don't think I'm that unusual.

Lumpy, it doesn't follow that all men therefore need to be told not to rape people.

Rapists need proper sanctions castration ,not posters telling them not to do it!

It's very coy, isn't it? I think its very vagueness suggests very strongly that it's about women being attacked/sexually assaulted; someone has pointed this out upthread, but the posters about tripping on the escalators etc are very clear in their message (and tend to feature men, as an aside.)

I think this one is absolutely sexist and victim-blaming, and buys in to rape myths. They are all women. They are all young and look relaxed and fun. They've all been carefully dressed in non-cliched, non-'tarty' clothing (no skyscraper heels or boob tubes) but, interestingly, all still have something on that could be considered 'sexy' or 'provocative' (tops that show cleavage and arms, form-fitting leather/shiny trousers, skirt with a flash of bare legs and feet.)

If it was not sexist then it would be a mixed or male group. If it was not perpetuating rape myths one or more of them would have on a warm winter puffa jacket or something, and chunky flat shoes. There'd be an older woman or two.

Also, how are you supposed to feel and what are you supposed to do if you're a woman travelling home from 'a night out' alone? Is it more your fault if you're attacked because you're not with your mates (or don't have any mates)?

Society holds women partially, if not totally, responsible for sexual assaults. Society needs educating, men need educating.

Lumpy thats rediculous. Just because society teaches women to be vigilant it doesn't mean women are being made responsible for rape. What do you want the train company to do, stick up posters saying please don't rape women?

A rapist doesn't give a shit, it's far more beneficial to educate women on how to be cautious and take care.

As I said earlier, regarding children and talking to strangers. We educate our children not to talk to strangers, or go wondering off and to stay in well lit areas etc. There has been millions of campaigns along this line. It would be fruitless to try educate the perpetrators as they lack empathy and don't give a shit. This is exactly the same.

it's far more beneficial to educate women on how to be cautious and take care

In what way does the poster educate on how to be cautious and take care?

What Lumpy said is far from ridiculous, sadly. There's been a huge amount of publication and discussion on this.

please do educate 'us' on how to avoid rape - without avoiding men or the outside world

all this poster does is remind women - maybe women having a fun night out and having a drink that they have less rights in public spaces - what a fucking downer

NN - yes, you did misunderstand, but probably my fault for not being clear. I quoted the whole piece, but was responding to the second part of your statement, where you claimed that men who are rapists won't respond to a campaign.

I accept that some won't, but the issue is that there are some men (and women) who don't realise that x or y is rape. So they won't stop doing it because they don't know, if you see what I mean?

It doesn't say they have less rights. It says that not everyone will respect those rights.
It's not blaming women for being attacked, merely indicating some action that might make it less likely for an attacker to target them ie, being in a group.

None of that takes away from it being utterly the rapist's fault. I get that it is dangerous territory and no one wants to see us going back to the days when women wearing short skirts were said to be 'asking for it' , but the fact is that it is very hard to deter and catch rapists becauae they just dont give a shit about othee people or laws. The best we can do is try to make ourselves less vulnerable. But that is not a value judgement regarding fault.

I disagree that that's a 'fact', NN. ('the fact is that it is very hard to deter and catch rapists becauae they just dont give a shit about othee people or laws').

Some research has indicated that, if you tell men that such-and-such an action is rape, they'll say they would never do it. But if you describe a situation (eg., 'would you sleep with a woman who had been dancing with you in the club, but now seemed to be falling asleep as you got her home?'), quite a lot of them will say they would do that.

It's not that they think 'I am a rapist. I intend to rape someone today'. It's that they have not been educated to think about what consent really means.

So what should be done then? If reminding women to stay safe is wrong as it implies women aren't as safe as men, then what I your eyes would be right?

Speaking from experience after being attacked, I should never have walked down a back street. Now had a poster been at the entrance of that back street I might have thought twice.

I get your points, the poster is a bit vague and there are better ways to campaign. But campaigning to keep women safe is vital.

Just as vital as campaigns for child abduction, drink spiking, domestic violence and so on. Campaigning that women should be treat equal isnt going to change statistics is it. Women are equal but the majority of rape crimes are committed by men.

Shouldn't we campaign to educate men?

That would help keep women safe.

Apologies Jeanne. Yes I agree that some men need educating as to what constitutes consent.

I have told my son ( who is a first year student ), not to sleep with anyone who is visibly drunk but I do have some concerns with this - it is making him take responsibility for her choices as if his decisions are more valid than hers and also he is likely also to have been drinking and if her ability to make decisions is impaired by alcohol, then so too are his.

I had loads of drunken sex as a student so I know it is unrealistic to tell him not to drink. Part of me does think that people do have a responsibility to themselves not to get drunk if they are likely to do things they will regret in the morning. Men as well as women.

NN yes! My views exactly.

No worries at all, NN.

Do agree very strongly that a general 'don't drink too much: you may well regret what you did in the morning' message is an excellent one.

As pootles says above - there should be a similar poster for men otherwise your falling again into the trope of women have themselves to blame.

Jeanne. Absolutely. I think secondary school sex education should explore consent more. I do think that some rape takes place due to lack of an individual's understanding. It's a grey area.

However we do need to educate women to stay safe too. It's common sense not sexism.

YY, agree with you about sex education, moopy.

And I don't disagree that general safety education is good - it's just that when it is related specifically to sex/getting attacked, it's problematic.

I'd actually be perfectly happy with 'don't walk home alone, because if you fall and hurt yourself there'll be no one to help' type of advice, which would serve precisely the same purpose in discouraging people from doing it, and wouldn't imply that women can take responsibility for men around them.

The list of things that were once thought to be common sense and are now considered sexism is a very long one...

The thing is Jeanne. The fact of the matter is women get attacked. If we get all feminist about it then it stops women acknowledging they need to stay safe. Feminists can rant till they are blue in the face that women shouldn't have to be aware they are at risk, but that's ignorance as they are still at risk!! Alls campaigning against posters like this achieves is women being less vigilant and the probability of attacks then rises.

I say to achieve equality we need to educate school age children the importance of staying safe aswell as the importance of understanding consent. Fighting the cause just brushes the issue under the carpet. Women are more at risk to sexual attack, it's a known fact.