Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

YABU. Rude. Incidentally, some people go to church as a spiritual practice, not to get a discount on their kids' schooling.

Some people - preachers included - class church as entertainment rather than as an act of worship, so they don't like distractions. It's all about them.

I'm not religious but from reading your posts I would suggest the vicar talking to you today wasn't about how they behaved today. I would suspect members of the congregation have indeed been complaining previously. I would have a conversation with the vicar about what can be done to help above what you are already doing. Specifically what is causing the issue for the congregation.

The crèche idea sounds good, might encourage new members to the congregation too.

But OP, if you organised a creche when Sunday School isn't on, then surely the other families would come in. They aren't coming because there is no Sunday School. Organise a creche with those parents and it is sorted.

Of course children and their parents should go to church when the children are small, but their parents should make sure their behaviour doesn't bother other people nor the minister.

If it does, they cant sit still long enough, then you need to have a plan B.

Its no different to taking them anywhere else where they need to be able to sit nicely for a given time- restaurant or somesuch- if they can't , dont do it.

OP, you sound like you think your children are the rightful focus of the Sunday Service.

Last time I looked that was the Christ Child, love.

You've made me weep with laughter, though. None so blind as those that cannot see... Cheer up and parent them during the service, stop them running about, you'll be fine. Good luck.

Corygal We have a popular church secondary. Nobody needs to accumulate church attendance for primary school admittance. We also have very few preschool children and a lot of primary school children. I hope the children and parents enjoy church and get a lot of out it. I'm pretty sure they do. But the fact remains that there are those in that group who only come to get into the secondary, and that almost all of them skip church if there isn't Sunday School.

The latter is definitely not the primary school parents/children's fault, it's because they noticed quicker than us, with our rose tinted spectacles because our children enjoyed the church, that the church didn't really want us there on those Sundays, so didn't lay anything on, and now is complaining about them.

Obviously other parents are having the same problem as you. Have you talked to them? Put a notice on noticeboard asking if there are volunteers? Lots of suggestions on here.

I haven't read the whole thread but we stopped going to church when DC1 was around 18 months because of this. He used to be happy napping in the buggy or being held but not anymore, he's a lively two year old, and we now have 4 month old DC2 to "control" as well so we just haven't been going. It's s shame and the priest looked at me funny when I went to book DC2s baptism but what do they expect? They don't want any noise or hint that there are children in the church even when it's a family service.

But OP your children don't seem to be enjoying the church, just the play area. Now you are also suggesting that other families have a less important reason for being there? Maybe they don't go when Sunday School isn't on BECAUSE THERE IS NO CRECHE!!! (sorry)

And you could organise a creche! And take children into the service later!

I think the problem is you are trying to be 50/50 by having your DC in a side chapel, where you are letting them play, but they are still able to disrupt people.

If the DC were included in the congregation, they would pick up cues from the people around them, and realise running and throwing weren't acceptable.

I, or one of my DC, have often "entertained" a restless toddler in the pew in front of us, when they've got bored of brumming their car/ scribbling/eating rice cakes.

There are lots of children in our congregation. The under fives stay with parents, and if they squawk to loudly the priest just turns up his mic. A large percentage of parents aren't British, and I wonder if it's cultural that they expect children to join in/be reasonably quiet.

We had one lovely priest, who if babies were crying, would remind the congregation Jesus loved children.

Im going to come over there and organise a creche myself!

At age 4 (even with investigations for Special needs) it's a good age to have a talk about going to church and expectations, old enough to pack a small bag of crayons and paper and colouring books to sit quietly with.
Even you reading reading prayer books quietly and saying get ready for Amen, is distracting to others. I know we had to stay in our seats as small children and we'd whisper to each other or to the adults. Colouring was allowed and rarely anyone needed to be taken out.
Maybe your child has become so used to it being somewhere he can move and run about he doesn't even try to sit quietly in the pews with you. I know if I was there with my own kids and they saw yours running about and playing they would want to do it too.

But other people DO want to hear the whole service OP

I sing one hymn bouncing DC2 on the pew next to me/in my arms, with DC1 possibly dancing along next to me. I enjoy watching DC2 learn to walk longer distances up and down the chapel, and learning to climb a couple of small steps. I enjoy reading the little prayer books to them during the sermon. I tell them "watch out we're going to say Amen now!" and "listen for the bells!". I tell them they can take up teddy/Lego/car for a blessing too.

Good grief. No wonder the vicar is getting complaints. You sound as though you are creating as much disturbance as your DC are. I think you need to listen and to take it with the sensitivity with which it has been delivered. They clearly do want to keep you as members of the congregation and have been tip-toeing around the ssue for some time. Sometimes it is very hard to step outside and see yourself from the outside, especially when you are busy with small children.

Believe me, I know SN brings its own challenges, but it is never a waste of time modelling consideration and appropriate behaviour to the DC, either.

There's nothing to stop you taking a 'mix and match approach of attending different services at two or three different churches.

In two short years it will al be much easier.

Good luck

Drspouse your second last post is very moving. Do you think you could tell the vicar that?

He didn't give you any solutions - but maybe this is an opportunity to look for some. There is a big issue here in your church - it's offering to families with children is poor and they feel unwelcome. He has only listened to the older generation. There is only Messy Church twice a year etc, no creche etc etc no way for mums to particpate spiritually, children with SEN looked on as a hindrance etc.

Tell him it's so bad you are thinking of leaving, can't the church find another way?

See what happens.

If the church embraces this as the opportunity to create a creche with services transmitted in so you can here them, more messy church, mid-morning service clearly demarcated as family welcome etc - brilliant.

If he just says please take your kids out to the car park then you know what to do

Our church usually has a Sunday school and a separate pre-primary crèche staffed by volunteers, including turns by many of the parents. They generally join in with the singing and go out through the sermon.
Occasionally the crèche isn't on as it wasn't today, we had the typical children ambling about and playing through the singing but remarkably little through the sermon. The 14 month old I was sitting next to played quietly with a couple of plastics spoons for a bit, pushed some empty chairs about, was cuddled by a couple of us, ate most of a hot cross bun, had a drink, carried around an unopened cereal bar for a bit and played with a car. When he started banging the drinks bottle against a chair his mum quietly redirected him, same when he started banging with the car, she moved him so he was banging her leg quietly instead of the chair noisily! Had he got really loud she'd have taken him out for a quick walk.
Babies and children are very very welcome but it's understood that people want to be able to hear the service and children are managed accordingly.
In your situation is try to get a crèche organised, even with one other set of parents you could each take a turn to miss one service, 2 sets of 2 parents would then only mean missing one in four. I don't know your vicar but for ours to be pushed to saying something the kids would have to be genuinely riotous.

OP, point taken and thanks, but now could you at least think about mine.

People go to church to worship, to be calm, to find peace, to get comfort, to be meditative, and to deal with incredibly hard life events like bereavement and illness, as well as every other trauma you can think of. And cope with everyday stuff. That's what church is for, and that's what they have come to get.

On what planet is the addition of other people's kids running and shouting helping them? Why would they be interested in your children a) at all (hint - they aren't) b) at a time of spiritual focus?

I know this might sound hard to understand for you, but this isn't all about you or your children. Other people have feelings too, you see; indeed a church services is a place and time that honours them.

People make allowances for littlies but in return, a touch of basic respect for others will take you a long way.

I attend regularly a church where there is no school connection. I do a group for the infants. one thin I've noticed over the years is that people do start going when they feel the child will get more out of it. We get an influx at about age 5yo and again at around age 8yo.
We have a fully staffed creche every week. I helped today. We had 4 adults and one child. The juniors had 12 children.

In the holidays we still have children's groups. Actually they're often more fun, parties etc. And often they're down to 3-4 children total maximum.

It's not necessarily that people aren't welcome or don't want to come in the holidays/with younger children. My experience says that's usual.

But Wol, this is what I don't understand! The vicar may not be helpful, but the OP could start the ball rolling. I despair at people moaning about things when they could do something about it. Meanwhile they wait for somebody else to do it. It is always like this at school, the same few parents all the time that have the get up and go to do something. The OP can put a notice on the noticeboard, talk to people instead of assuming that they are only there to get in the High School of their choice. (How does she know that anyway?)

How do you manage your DC1 in a restaurant OP? What strategies are useful to you there when he's struggling to sit?

Inclusion is about reasonable adjustments that balance the needs of everyone involved. The church is already providing a child friendly space for families, toys, acceptance that children are not going to be still and silent through the service so parents can still attend, the children are free to play. However the purpose of the service is to deliver a service and to meet the needs of everyone present, not just the children, and it's been explained to you that even within all this provision your son has crossed the boundary line of what is reasonable or acceptable child behaviour during the service.

What compromises are you willing to make here to accommodate the boundary they have on what ds can be allowed to do during the service so the service is not spoiled for others?

If your ds's needs are such that he is not at this time able to understand about there being places where he cannot run around, if he is not able to follow adult agenda without a full blown tantrum and restraint or accept redirection to play without running around even with all your careful providing of play, snack etc, then you may need to accept he does not yet have the skills to be put in that situation and look at alternating weekly attendance with dh until he is older. Or take it in turns to play with him outside when he is unable to play quietly. Or look for a church perhaps that could offer him a full time Sunday school creche place during the service.

No matter how severe SEN he may have, when he goes to school he will not be allowed to run around in assembly. He may attend for only a couple of minutes with support, he may have visual cues to help him understand what to do, he may have a toy to play with, but the focus will be on teaching him to learn how to join the situation appropriately and to manage his behaviour.

I think they'd probably be fairly understanding of noise, but running and catching is quite distracting for everyone else.

Why, when he wasn't wearing shoes and couldn't be seen?

The throwing and catching is probaby a bit much. What are the church doing to include children though? There has to be give take on both sides.

I think they'd probably be fairly understanding of noise, but running and catching is quite distracting for everyone else. Would he perhaps sit still with colouring or a magazine or a phone game or something?

Jevoudrais, did you see where OP explained that the children couldn't be seen as they are in a partly partitioned off side chapel, and her child wasn't wearing shoes so he didn't make a noise running? And indeed that he has SEN?

Yabu

There's a big difference between a noisy, chattering, singing, talking DC and a DC who is running around throwing a toy, however soft it is.

I have two boisterous boys. Honestly so loud and hyper. They have been taught from a young age that church is for sitting quietly. I have been known to take sweets, DS consoles or Kindles to help if Sunday school isn't on, but no way would they ever be allowed to run at all in the church.

Yabu