Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

Our church is Catholic and is always full, always about 10 -15 people have to stand.
Full of young family's but the whole age spectrum!
Children there are nothing to do with school admissions!

Anyway all children sit on the pews, a few bring a soft toy or colouring crayons and a pad. None of them throw things or leave the pew, if they do they are brought back. Usually when they get to 4 - 5 years they have learnt to sit fairly still for 50 mins and there is often a little bit of the liturgy addressed to them.

The priest every few months says how delighted he is to see all the generations in the church and has previously commented not to worry about babies making a noise as the "church" and community are delighted we bring them from a young age.

I still feel bad if there is noise made when soothing wrestling my 2 youngest (7 months and 3yrs) in the pews, but the priests comments has put me at ease. I'd be gutted if someone complained, as I really am trying my best. I try and get a side aisle seat so I can rush out of they cry.

So sorry if this sounds harsh but I think YABU and I don't see how your children will learn to sit still and concentrate on the service if you don't practice.

I don't understand the unfair on other children argument. Surely you tell them they are capable of sitting still/ quiet and explain that the other child can't do that yet.

Oh it was the last para of the OP. I think you are being a tiny bit unreasonable to see every compromise in terms of 'exclusion' TBH OP.

I wouldn't really like a glassed in area and I wouldn't be looking for a new church with one, actively, but we couldn't put one in our historic building anyway.

If the service is piped in I may as well stay home and listen to a recording of a service that's beautifully sung from Kings Cambridge. Or maybe the noise-sensitive could do that?

Now that's a BRILLIANT idea! All the noise-sensitive people could go and sit in the side room and have it piped in, with no microphones near the side chapel so they don't have to see or hear the children! who are as I have repeatedly said members of the congregation too

You may want that for your family but some places/activities/ideas just aren't suitable for certain aged children, especially if they are more spirited! Have family time in other ways, no ones saying you can't be religious or include the church at all, just maybe not this particular service in this particular church

(The preschool years are short in the overall scheme of things. Other people want to worship without excessive distraction. Weigh it up for yourself.)

Children will be children, and sometimes their behaviour will leave a lot to be desired. However, you still need to be a parent at all times.

Your desire for your children to come to mass with you, and you all be there as family is great, but it doesn't negate somebody else's desire to partake in a solemn, spiritual religious service.

YABVU to think it is acceptable to let a child run around throwing a teddy bear at mass. It doesn't matter whether the child can be seen or not. It's is a place of devotion, where people have come to receive communion. It is not acceptable to let children stand on the furniture. It is not some sort of play centre.

Mass-goers are far more accepting of children's less than ideal behaviour, if they see a parent making an effort to curtail it. Throwing a teddy in mass plays no part in a family spiritual/religious experience. It is a child being allowed run amok without his parents caring about other people.

I have 3 kids. We go to mass. Most of the time as a family. However, we will make a call as to whether the youngest, 3, is in the sort of mood that is compatible with mass, and likely not to impose his unruliness on other parishioners. The older 2 always go now, but again, that would not always have been the case.

I have dealt with all sorts of behaviour whilst at mass. My experience in a number of churches, is that nobody expects children to behave perfectly, but rather that parents will deal with bad behaviour. Screaming, kicking children are removed from mass, and allowed back in when their behaviour is better. If it's not better, they don't come back in. But they're not allowed hold their parents or other parishioners to ransom; i.e. you better let them run around throwing a teddy, or else there'll be a meltdown.

Ultimately, it all comes down to respect. You either respect somebody else's right to expect to be able to come to mass, and leave with some sense of having had a spiritual experience, or you decide to let your children play as if they were at Jungle Gym. If you go for option 2, though, you need to be prepared for some level of fallout.

The vicar is not being the unreasonable one.

Have you considered taking them to the park for an hour before church, scooters, climbing etc? Then a nice big snack immediately before the service?

I agree with others, it is likely the running and throwing that are the problem here.

MrsDeVere this is church though that has several services on a Sunday and only seems to tolerate children on the services when they are removed from church to Sunday School which don't even happen every week.

There are lots of adult only spaces in this church, very few child spaces and absolutely no SN friendly ones at all.

Surely the complete child haters have the option of the 8:30 or the 6:30 when there are no children at all? Which tends to be how it normally works with the mid morning service being family?

I find it very sad that because OP has a child with SN she is effectively being excluded from the place that should be giving her spiritual support.

Also, if you want a service where the children can be more free with their behaviour, try looking for a Messy Church, rather than a general service.

Our church has a similar sounding set up. I've taken DC there from v small and had those services where the children have been so wriggly its seemed like I wasted my time. BUT now they are older I can take them anywhere and they get it - they understand what is going on, they join in, I'm so glad I persevered.

I'd've been really upset if the vicar had said people were complaining! Luckily our church has always been very welcoming, as well as kids there are a few people with autism who are accepted, totally as they should be. Church is meant to be a kind place.

A mid morning Sunday service is not for peace or solace or adults only. It's for a community of believers to come together to worship our Creator and Saviour. As such you need to see the complexity and wonder of that creation and that includes kids being noisy. Better by far that a family comes every week just as they are than they do what some of you suggest and only come when the kids 'get something out of it'. That's not what church is for.
I think the OP's church needs to watch this and practice fellowship. The op's children will be noisy and bouncy for a few months. Their faith is for ALWAYS. You don't put stumbling blocks in each others way.

OP - if you and your family are ever in York, message me and you can come to church with me and my family

If all the parents got together and took it in turns, then the children could go in the Sunday School room. I know the Op wants them to join in with the church stuff, but as yet, obviously they are still not quite ready. Or maybe they could all come through for the last couple of songs?

Have you decided what you will do op and what compromise you'd be happy with?

You have my sympathies OP. My now 5 year old is just starting to be able to sit still in a service for 15 minutes. Last year he just couldn't do it. He doesn't have any S.E.N he is just an active child, who did not find the church service engaging so found it hard to sit. My 3 year old has been able to sit still and do a quiet activity since he was 2. They have different temperaments. It is quite normal for some preschool children to find it difficult to sit still. My child's behaviour in church was a source of considerable stress to me every time we took him into the service. I used to dread the family services. Even though no-one has said anything negative about them to me ever. But like you I felt that if we went into another room, there was absolutely no point having made the effort to get everyone up, dressed and out of the house in time for the service, not easy with a baby as well. And I thought well if I find it hard, then how hard would it be for a visitor with children, even harder for someone who doesn't regularly attend church. How stressful would that be? I feel quite strongly that churches should make a point of welcoming EVERYONE to services meant for everyone. Many churches have an ageing congregation. They should welcome children, like Jesus did. If they don't they will loose those families, and they may never come back.

To be fair OP, there are lots of people on here trying to help.x

I go to a family service, designed for young children, and there is no way I would allow my 3.5 year old run around throwing a toy in the air.

For that matter, every week you could fetch them into the church for a little longer? So they get used to it?

We actually have two Messy Church services a year (yes, just two a year). We've never been because they seem to be mainly craft (DC1's limitations mean he loves craft but can't really do it), and have always clashed with nap time till the last one which clashed unfortunately with a birthday party we'd been invited to long before. So maybe in the future, but twice a year doesn't make church.

Northern I'd love to do that. I'm actually in tears at some people's kindness and other people's lack of understanding frankly.

As I say I've been at this church for 12 years and I thought we were welcome. I don't know what we'll do - we did investigate other churches when we moved here and they were all really too "happy clappy" for us, with a very large proportion of them (at that time anyway) being rather non-inclusive, anti-gay, anti-women-in-ministry. Maybe some of them have changed but there were several we wouldn't want our children exposed to! One or two we visited and I was the youngest person there (in my 30s at the time).

We'd love more provision for children, but the other families never attending unless there is Sunday School suggests that, actually, this situation may not be fixable and the church may not be willing to have a supposedly "family" service that is accessible to families UNLESS there's a separate space for families to not bother the main congregation.

I really, really don't think that children shouldn't go to church for the first 5 years of their lives. I don't think parents shouldn't go to church. A lot of people seem to be suggesting this.

It doesn't sound as though noise sensitivity is the issue, to be fair, OP.

Seeing something repeatedly thrown in the corner of your field of vision is a different kind of distraction. As is a child running around freely with no attempt at dissuasion.

As the church-going parent of autistic children myself (and I'm generally pretty staunch about their rights to be included in things), I'm confused about what YOU are getting out of this. How can you relax and follow the service?

(If two or three more children of similar profile joined, how could anyone?)

Messy church is a great idea.

It's hard with children at church. We have 7 children at ours, plus 2 adults with SN and about 12 other adults. My older 3 (5-9) and the 2 adults with SN will sit quietly with books/colouring. The 4 babies/toddlers (2 of mine and 2 others are quiet considering their ages but not quiet enough for some people. We take them out when they are louder than a whisper but that usually means we go to 1/2 a service a week.

X post.

I really, really don't think that children shouldn't go to church for the first 5 years of their lives. I don't think parents shouldn't go to church. A lot of people seem to be suggesting this.

But you've been so rude about the possible compromises ('aquariums').

I also think YABU in suggesting that anyone finding fault with your children should put up with being excluded from the service.

gooseberry since we've had the DCs, I've got different things out of church than previously. In some ways I feel it is better. I don't try to concentrate on the whole service and benefit from every single word, in a meditative way. I try to listen to one prayer, and if I hear it as a whole and take it in, that is fabulous.

I sing one hymn bouncing DC2 on the pew next to me/in my arms, with DC1 possibly dancing along next to me. I enjoy watching DC2 learn to walk longer distances up and down the chapel, and learning to climb a couple of small steps. I enjoy reading the little prayer books to them during the sermon. I tell them "watch out we're going to say Amen now!" and "listen for the bells!". I tell them they can take up teddy/Lego/car for a blessing too.

I thought I enjoyed seeing the congregation, who've known them since they were tiny, watch them run back to our seats, and watch DC1 run back excitedly from Sunday School with whatever creation there is or to tell one of us about the story. But clearly they were just gritting their teeth.