To avoid this mum? (Yes, a school gates dilemma)

[Campaspe]

I hang out with a group of mums. Our kids play together at times, and we socialise together. One other mum makes me uneasy. She seems awkward and lacking in social skills, and I felt a bit sorry for her as she seemed friendless. She seemed to latch onto me a bit, and our DDs became friends. I found her a bit boring, and a bit snide at times, and tried to see her only as part of the group.

Our DDs have had some friendship problems recently, typical 9 yo girls blowing hot & cold with it. I've kept a discreet eye on it, but I'm trying to let DD figure it out alone as much as possible.

Other mum tried to text me about it, and I advised her we should ignore etc etc. Since then, things have felt awkward between us. To make it worse, DD's teacher phoned me to say this mum has been in (the implication was to complain about my DD & the friendship issues). Other mums have told me this mum regularly visits the school, & my DD seems upset & puzzled by this. From what I can see, their friendship is up & down, no bullying is going on, & my DD is left on her own whilst this other child plays with other children. All fair enough.

I'm polite to this mum, include her in group stuff, avoid conversions if I can politely do so, but feel I want nothing much to do with her. However, I feel guilty as she stands alone if I don't explicitly invite her to join the conversation, and the other mums aren't keenkeen to get caught by her.

Aibu to restrict our relationship in this way, and why do I feel both guilty & manipulated by her at the same time?

It sounds like she thought you were friends. She when there were issues, she tried to talk to you about it, which seems fair to me. You shut her down, so she went to the school. All seems fair to me.

I agree with you OP that many parents get too involved in friendship issues. And they do need to learn to sort it out themselves.

You feel sorry for her, so think it would be nice to include her, but don't really want to. I would if I was you just be polite, but nothing more.

urgh, so glad i dont have to endure school mummy shite like this.

you sound rather unpleasant OP

Thank you for all the responses, even the critical ones. All food for thought. I can't respond to all of them as I've got to get DD to youth club, but I will be able to read them in depth tomorrow and consider them.

I suppose for the moment I've decided to carry on as I have been: I'll be polite to this mum, but I'm not going to take responsibility for helping her join in with other mums or do more than be pleasant but distant. Difficult to do justice to the nuances and volatility of pre-teen friendship in a thread of this nature, and I don't want to get into a "her child said/did" sort of thread, which is why I've tried to view it as case of them both needing to learn to sort things out, but as my DD is the one who plays alone when they fall out, and needs help to deal with this other girl being rather controlling of DD (we are working on strategies to help my DD cope with the isolation and her teacher has told me she has identified some other girls that she thinks would like to include my DD and she is working on this. This is one of the reasons why I'm happy for the teacher to talk to the class), I'm not going to talk to this other mum about the friendship issues, but leave it to the school. Sorry, what a convoluted sentence.

There is nothing more I would love than for this child to stay well away from mine, but sadly, I don't think that will happen as the girls are capable of making up and breaking up several times a week, so experience is that they seem to seek each other out, even though I've suggested to my DD that she would be better off with other friends! No doubt they will either learn to handle things, or learn that there isn't much of a friendship and simply go off with others. And I suppose this makes it ultimately a problem that will resolve itself!

Thanks for the different perspectives; always good to have some different ways of thinking about it. I wanted to try to understand MY problem with feeling both guilty and resentful to this mum, and the posts from Witsender and Cleaty above seem like good advice. Thank you.

I don't know OP, why do you feel manipulated by her?

I don't quite follow how you are "trying to see her only as part of the group" when according to your later paragraph, no one else wants to invite her in or include her in any way, you all leave her to stand alone.

No one is forcing you to invite her round for coffee but it seems harsh to basically blank her en masse at the school gate.

Don't judge her for talking to the teacher. You may not see bullying, but someone else's 9 year old may see it differently and if so, her mum is right to believe her and follow it up. Her mistake was to try to speak to you about the girls' issues.

Sorry, crosspost!

From what I can see, their friendship is up & down, no bullying is going on, & my DD is left on her own whilst this other child plays with other children. All fair enough.

Apologies OP: I had misread this as the other child plays alone while your own child plays with others. Reversing that to your actual words totally alters your posts - I went back to look because your latest didn't match my understanding of events so I was , but it was my own understanding that was shaky.

If the teacher was calling you not to vaguely say your child was involved in unspecified difficulties, but to identify other kids she could play with, then that is a totally different kettle of fish. So what you are saying is that this seems one of those friendships kids sometimes have where one is almost colonising the other, and the mother of the coloniser, as you see it, is complaining if your daughter tries to assert herself? But you feel uncomfortable being less than friendly with the mother, and that makes you feel annoyed about it?

All a bit messy really. School relationships often seem to be, even with the adults - I don't know why.

If you are a compassionate person, it is natural to want to include someone who seems to be struggling. But you can send out the message you are friends, when you are really not. And of course when you make it clear you are not friends, the woman would be hurt.

It is always difficult to not be friends with your child's best friends mum. But from what you describe your child is not friends with other child and you don't like other child's mum? All I can suggest is you turn up at school on time and just say a simple "Hello" to other mum. There is no need for you to stand for ages feeling uncomfortable - thinking you must involve her in discussions with you and other mums. You obviously don't want to be best mates with her and that is fine. Just exchange pleasantries and get on with your life

I wrote a thread about relationships with our children being complicated so this thread is very timely!

Link www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2568828-Do-you-think-children-complicate-adult-friendships

Sorry but I can't see what the other mum has done wrong. I'd have done exactly the same. I would have tried to talk to you about it as both children areally suffering. I think you have been reading far too much into it and perhaps taken a bit too personally.

In my experience the parents of children who want them to sort things out themselves are often the parents of a dominant character and certainly not the parents of a child who is having a miserable time.

Absolutely. The only parents I've ever known to make noise about not getting involved and leaving them to it are parents who would rather avoid acknowledging that their kid isn't very nice at all.

I don't agree that we should always be involved unless it gets out of hand. This might be a case in point however.

This reminds me of a parent who whipped her child out of my dd class because she didn't get on with some of the girls there and Dd was devastated. Dd was having issues too but I strongly believe age was a factor (8/9 is notorious for friendships to be difficult for girls ) and it would have blown over. The girls dd struggled with then are good friends now at secondary but she never quite got over the other girl moving and the friendship didn't recover

Once parents involve themselves it's difficult to go back.

I think it's best to stay in the wings unless intervention is genuinely required as well, but I still think a lot of pretty horrible behaviour goes ignored by the parents of those meting it out under the guise of 'staying out of it'.

You need to talk to your child about what good friendship is, how to deal with conflict, those kind of general lessons. But getting involved in details of friendship disputes often backfires.

I have long hypothesised that the mothers with worst social skills in the play ground are the ones who are hung up on some outdated queen bee notion that it would be some kind of disaster to acquire "hangers on" - like when they were at school themselves and had to avoid being ghettoised with the uncool - and indeed, believe that any loosely friendly overture is some attempt to inveigle oneself into a social circle.

(no, darling, I have no desire to compare manis in Costa, so don't panic i am not trying to crash your hun-clique; I just thought I may as well find out your name as our children will be in the same class for 6 years, and if we smile at each other and say hello a couple of times a week the chances of one of helping each other out with some practical detail over the next 6 years improve)

Are you sure you are not under this tragic misapprehension?

sorry not read all the responses op.

I agree with not trying to carry this other ladies issues.

But on the subject of the friendship whilst its important to let them sort it out, I wonder if something else isnt going that does need to be discussed and you have essesntially cut her off from doing this, with you.

so you have left her no other recourse.

I say this because a mum at drop off once I was chatting to, made a strange remark about friendship issues and staying out of it, but how its hard and she doesn't know what to say.

her dd and mine play together.

a few weeks later I get called into the school over friendship issues, and looking back I wonder if the other mum was hinting something was amiss to me, and I unwittingly brushed it off.

it is awkward to now bring up,and another mum involved now thinks I initiated the school intervention.

ThankfullY that other mum the 3rd one, is chatty and inspite of me not knowing her was able to raise it with me, so we could have a good chat about it all.

I think you should go up to the other mum and say " you tried to talk about the girls issues the other day, I am sorry I was pre occupied would you like to chat about it" and see what she says.

much better to communicate if you can, my own dd had without me realizing become extremely distressed due to the issues going on.

I have not interfered but talking to the other mum, and supporting at home has helped and having now been in this situation.

due to being called in by the school I can also imagine someone seeing me and accusing me of being interfering when I was there by their invitation, you can see how it all blows out of proportion .

talk about this issue and then keep your distance but I would allow her to talk about it...clear it up as best you can.

for all you know her dd may be really suffering..

gandalf how on earth can you possibly make that call re the other girls parents pulling her out?

In what way is she "snide"? Could you have misunderstood some of the things she said?

She seemed to latch onto me a bit

Maybe she was simply being friendly.

I advised her we should ignore

Did the advice work both ways, i.e. did she also tell you her advice?

the implication was to complain about my DD & the friendship issues

If something wasn't said, then it's only a guess what was "implied". A teacher should be impartial and just looking for a way to make things more positive.

You don't really need to search for excuses to avoid this woman, or fuel your dislike of her, when the main reason is that you just don't gel.

It's up to the mum, of course, but all the girls were having issues at that point and most of us thought it better to ride it out which worked out well in the end.

In a couple of years, they were in secondary in different schools and classes with different issues. They have to learn to face these things. They will get it throughout their lives at work, down the street and even when their kids start school

I don't think they learn anything from mum getting involved to a high level unless really out of hand. Dd s teacher as much as told her recently they didn't like to involve themselves unless it is out and out bullying.

It's up to the mum, of course, but all the girls were having issues at that point and most of us thought it better to ride it out which worked out well in the end

well good for the rest of you.

I thought that too until I was called into the school because my dd was so upset she couldn't work, she was in a very bad way! I even thought about pulling her out as her happiness was paramount.

After having many discussions with various people I came to the conclusion parents are too casual about fallings out and we do need to keep an eye on the dc.

yes there are arguments and yes a certain distance should be kept but at the same time, sometimes there can be a break down in friendships that are too much for a young child to cope with.

sometimes the child will need a fresh start if that can be arranged.

I say good on the other girls parents for acting on their dds problems. You have no idea the extent and degree of those issues.

Gandalf lots of schools do intervene though when its not bullying there are various things they can do.

I don't think it's OTT to flag it to the teacher, and trust them to judge whether and how to intervene.

Yes, these social lessons and skills do need to be learned, but that doesn't have to mean abandoning the children to sort it out in the playground amongst themselves. We don't teach them to read by surrounding them with books and letting them figure it out themselves.

Parents engaging with other parents has far too much potential to backfire though.

Because you haven't allowed a dialogue about what's going on between your dds, you don't really know what she's wanted to say about it, or gleaned from a conversation what she needs from you or could tell you. And she probably feels shut down/misunderstood. She most likely wants some kind of reassurance.

It just sounds like you're being avoidant and I'm not quite sure why? And feeling guilty/manipulated is also sometimes a part of being avoid ant. Fine you don't want to get involved with your dc's friendship politics, but at least make this decision after knowing all the information (which includes hearing what she's got to say.)