WIBU to confront licence holder who sold whisky to my brother?

[shockthemonkey]

My brother has been drinking 2 litres of whisky a day for a year. He has refused to let us visit him, and stopped answering the phone to me a long time ago. Family finally managed (with profressional help) to gain access to his house and get him into hospital. His prognosis is not good.

I found bank statements and marched into the off-licence where he has been buying his drink for the past year. This shop continued selling 2 litres of whisky a day to someone who was visibly deteriorating in front of their eyes and very obviously had a serious problem. I showed them a picture of my brother and told them I would make sure they lost their licence if they ever sold to him again (actually my brother is unlikely to return to live there anyway). It got heated (the proprietor wanted to know why I was not looking after him! said it was no concern of hers who was a chronic alcoholic and who wasn't: it was our problem -- never mind that we don't live in the same country and have families of our own to look after!).

I'd just like to know where the law stands on this; the granting of a licence implies some duty of care, I should think, but how far does this extend? I would imagine the main concern is public safety, nuisance and underage drinking -- not in fact concerns arising from my brother's case as he is an adult and very mild-mannered. But it would seem crazy if there were no expectation of ethical conduct that went along with the granting of a licence.

I just cannot get over that this woman felt no guilt about it all -- thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon. Fine, she's lacking a moral compass, but what about the law? I don't want to pursue the matter as it happens, but would like to know for future reference, should anything similar ever happen again.

Thanks if you can give me some info.

Incidentally, my friends father got sober in the end. It was a long slog but he did it. I think it's been 13 years. So there's hope for your brother

You really did support him and spent a tremendous amount of time and money, but that didn't help him. Why do you think a shopkeeper not selling him alcohol would have? He could have just asked/paid someone to do it for him.

My grandad is an alcoholic. After years of drinking whisky, it took a great deal to appear drunk.

Unless you know they were selling it to him actually, visibly drunk thy haven't done anything wrong.

Yes it is the same as selling an obese person food.

I get that your distressed, but your anger is misdirected

B) a policeman in uniform
C) a known prostitute

Anyone know the reasoning behind these two, they just sound a bit random and how do you know if someone is a prostitute??

would you be allowed to sell alcohol to a stippergram dressed as a policeman??

Sorry op - it's a shit situation been there with my dad - but he'll get it somewhere, somehow. Not the shopkeepers fault.

I'm sorry to hear your brother is so ill but you are wrong to misdirect your grief at the shopkeeper, as PPs have said unless you was visibly intoxicated they have no grounds to refuse him.
Your brother's actions have led to his illness, no one else's.
I have lost a family member to alcoholism, it's very hard.

Come on op. It's not the woman's responsibility to withhold his alcohol and he would obviously have got it elsewhere if he's that dependent. You're upset I get it but you're being ridiculous blaming her. You're still on the merry go round of addiction

I totally get where you're coming from OP. My brother's tipple was vodka rather than whisky but otherwise this whole story is so familiar it hurts.

Al Anon were very helpful to us as a family, although our mum refused to engage with them and thus became part of the problem (I assume you've come across the term co-dependency?)

The state you've got yourself into - spending all your savings on help programmes, does remind me of our actions (i.e. myself and my sisters) when it first became clear he was in real trouble. It took several thousand pounds and a lot of heartache before we learnt the lesson that only the addict can make the choice to deal with his or her addiction.

I'm sorry OP.

As has been said, you're misdirecting your anger and grief.

Good luck.

OP, I really feel for you. You have done so much to help your brother. Unfortunately, he is continuing to demonstrate he is not interested in helping himself - and until he does, it doesn't matter what intervention and how much money he has thrown at him, he will continuing drinking. There is literally nothing anyone else but him can do to stop him drinking if he is not ready to. As the saying goes, 'you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it'. I know it's a hard message to hear - I really do, I've been there. I second the suggestion that you go back to Al-Anon for support for yourself x

I have spent ten years, hundreds of man-hours and thousands of pounds trying to save my brother, so I do think I am focusing on helping him, thanks. He lived with me for six months, that's a lot of care as he is not very self-sufficient... I have flown thirteen hours each way to come to his aid and bring him back home, or paid to have interventionists accompany him business class across the Atlantic. I have also shed many many tears. I have no money left for this problem after the Priory, Betty Ford and another clinic in Thailand (cannot remember name)... four professional interventions, two private hospitals and numerous detox centres. You cannot imagine the time, money and emotion that has gone into the whole problem already, and not just by me but also my mother and sisters

And despite all of that, he is still drinking. So if all of those years and time and money and love and pain couldn't stop him drinking, do you honestly think the responsibility for his condition lies with a stranger who sells whisky? If you couldn't save him, with all your efforts, you really think the buck stops with her?

You don't really, I think. You're just angry and upset and what somewhere to direct it, because you know your brother is in no shape to take it. And thats normal, even though its unfair.

I'd have thrown you out of my shop. The shopkeeper isn't responsible for policing your brother.

'When we arrived to get him this last time, my brother was so unwell he could hardly stand. He would definitely not have made it to the second nearest off-licence had this shop refused to serve him, or even just bothered to do anything more than take his money and turn a blind eye. And since he was drinking two litres of whisky a day, he would have been drunk constantly... drunk enough to refuse to serve, if you bothered to take a proper look.'

You have no idea if this is true at all. There's a guy in the flat downstairs who drinks like this and he does not appear drunk until he is well on.

Your brother's condition is not the shopkeeper's fault. He's an adult. It's a business, not a clinic. You'd have to prove he was visibly intoxicated when he went in there.

B) a policeman in uniform C) a known prostitute

Anyone know the reasoning behind these two, they just sound a bit random and how do you know if someone is a prostitute??

I really don't want to derail this thread, but the relevant act (may actually be repealed by the 2003 Licencing Act) dates from the early 20th century or even earlier. It was to prevent pubs being used as venues for soliciting. I guess Policemen was to stop beat officers nipping into pubs for a drink whilst being on patrol and ending up unable to do their job.

I am so sorry for and about your brother, shockthemonkey, and for you and your family who have had to repeatedly face the effects of his addiction.

But this "thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon" is just not true.

I can understand why you are saying it, why you feel it, but you must already know it is not true.

You probably owe her an apology tbh

Its not the shopkeeper's fault, your DB is an adult. However I can completely understand why you were upset. I admire you for marching into the shop in your DBs defence though, wish I had a sister like you!

I'm really sorry for your brother and the rest of your family as they are obviously affected by this. But i work in a shop and it is very difficult to deal with this sort of thing. If a person if obviously intoxicated we are not allowed to serve them, but at the same time we have to be careful if for example we are serving alone (rest of staff in warehouse) you never know if they will become violent or abusive. We do have a regular customer who we have refused to serve, the last time we refused him we noticed he was driving, and i actually called police and informed them. He still comes in but now he walks.

shockthemonkey,

Your anger is understandable but you directed it at the wrong person. The person you need to be really angry at is your brother.

re your comment:-

"Thanks for the support. I have spent ten years, hundreds of man-hours and thousands of pounds trying to save my brother, so I do think I am focusing on helping him, thanks. He lived with me for six months, that's a lot of care as he is not very self-sufficient... I have flown thirteen hours each way to come to his aid and bring him back home, or paid to have interventionists accompany him business class across the Atlantic. I have also shed many many tears. I have no money left for this problem after the Priory, Betty Ford and another clinic in Thailand (cannot remember name)... four professional interventions, two private hospitals and numerous detox centres. You cannot imagine the time, money and emotion that has gone into the whole problem already, and not just by me but also my mother and sisters".

The 3cs re alcoholism:-
You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

He has made a choice here and that is one of drink; alcohol is truly a cruel mistress. His primary relationship is with drink.

Unfortunately your entire family has fallen into the same enabling trap; all these actions were simply enabling him and did not help him or you. All this gave you as as a family was a false sense of control.

Your family of origin could well further half bankrupt themselves trying to save him and you will still not succeed. He is someone who does not want your support (he has well and truly thrown all that back at you) or to be rescued and or saved by you all.

Unless the will to address his alcoholism comes from him and he alone, no familial interventions will work. Familial coercion never ever works.

Someone now has to say enough and walk away. Your own recovery will only begin when you yourself have got off the merry go around that is his alcoholism.

I hold an alcohol licence and I have huge sympathy for you OP, it must be a horrible situation. However, as per the comments above, it is extremely harsh of you (as well as being unfair) to harass the licensee in this way. I've served customers like your brother - however, as you will be aware, the more an alcoholic drinks, the more they need to drink to become "drunk". However, in a rural setting, we had the further moral question of "will they get in the car and drive elsewhere (whilst potentially over the limit) and possibly have a accident? There's no easy answer. Furthermore, the off-sales training I've attended points out that there is no legal definition of "drunk" - it's subjective. If your brother was able to walk into the shop in question, request and pay for the whiskey without falling over, or being rude and abusive, then the shop would be well within their rights to accept that he was sober enough to be served. Additionally - how do you know who was serving him? If you are not local, you are unlikely to know the full ins and outs of the shop staffing so it could have been a number of different people serving him over the course of a week.

I disagree with OneEpisode - there is no way you have any legal case against the shop; the onus would be on you to prove that he was so drunk that they shouldn't have served him. I think it's extremely unlikely that you would be able to prove that. I would focus your energy/resources on supporting your brother with what is a medical condition, not hounding a licensee who in all likelyhood has done nothing wrong. As Peppa pointed out, you wouldn't have chased a shop for selling cigarettes to someone dying of lung cancer (although I do agree with you there is a difference between this situation and an obese person buying a mars bar).

Good luck and

I'm sorry your brother is so illOP but yabu re shopkeeper.

I can see why you want to blame someone, but it's not the shopkeepers fault. If they wouldn't sell it he would steal it or (whether you refuse to believe it or not) go somewhere else or get someone to buy it for him. He's an addict, he will do whatever it takes to get alcohol. Maybe the shop staff were worried about him getting violent if they refused to serve him (whether true or not, it's scary thought for often young staff on min wage).

Stop fighting a losing argument on here OP and spend time with your brother while you can

Yabvu you need to go and apologise. When I read your title I assumed it was selling to underage children. It's not the shops place to stop your brother drinking.

thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon

Saying this is very unfair of you OP. It's not due to her inaction. It's due entirely to your brother.

But, I am very sorry that you are going through this, and I'm very sorry that he is so ill now. It's very, very hard.

My brother died from a heroin overdose, and although some people afterwards blamed the dealer, I really couldn't. It was his (db's) life, his choices that killed him. The years of family trying to help, the years of misery for so many people that he caused- it is very, very difficult.

I do understand where you're coming from to an extent, but don't blame the woman at the off license.