WIBU to confront licence holder who sold whisky to my brother?

[shockthemonkey]

My brother has been drinking 2 litres of whisky a day for a year. He has refused to let us visit him, and stopped answering the phone to me a long time ago. Family finally managed (with profressional help) to gain access to his house and get him into hospital. His prognosis is not good.

I found bank statements and marched into the off-licence where he has been buying his drink for the past year. This shop continued selling 2 litres of whisky a day to someone who was visibly deteriorating in front of their eyes and very obviously had a serious problem. I showed them a picture of my brother and told them I would make sure they lost their licence if they ever sold to him again (actually my brother is unlikely to return to live there anyway). It got heated (the proprietor wanted to know why I was not looking after him! said it was no concern of hers who was a chronic alcoholic and who wasn't: it was our problem -- never mind that we don't live in the same country and have families of our own to look after!).

I'd just like to know where the law stands on this; the granting of a licence implies some duty of care, I should think, but how far does this extend? I would imagine the main concern is public safety, nuisance and underage drinking -- not in fact concerns arising from my brother's case as he is an adult and very mild-mannered. But it would seem crazy if there were no expectation of ethical conduct that went along with the granting of a licence.

I just cannot get over that this woman felt no guilt about it all -- thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon. Fine, she's lacking a moral compass, but what about the law? I don't want to pursue the matter as it happens, but would like to know for future reference, should anything similar ever happen again.

Thanks if you can give me some info.

[ifyoulikepinacolada]

to you OP. You accept you were being unreasonable - although I can understand why you did it. My stepfather is a heroin addict so I do empathise. Look after yourself.

[lazyarse123]

cross post PouletDePrintems, I completely agree with you.

[lazyarse123]

I really think you are being out of order regarding your opinion of the shopkeeper, she is in business to make money not to be your brothers keeper. If you couldn't stop him how is she supposed to?

[OnIlkelyMoorBahtat]

The shopkeeper will get over it: they'll have heard worse before. Your grief and pain got the upper hand that time - it happens to us all. All the best to you OP, you are a wonderful sister to your brother, but it's time for you to start healing yourself now xxx

[PouletDePrintemps]

But it is true that she found it reasonable to carry on making money off of someone so ill, and whose illness she was enabling.

I still think this is very unfair. She just did her job. It's not for her to decide who can buy what drink unless they are breaking the law as stated above, and as you admitted he may not have appeared drunk to her.

I am sorry for the pain that you are going through. I do also feel for the shopkeeper if you were as harsh to her as you were in your OP. She may very well feel like shit when she really does not deserve it.

I actually feel really angry on behalf of the shopkeeper.

[shockthemonkey]

I really thank you all. And flowers back to everyone who has experienced similar. Some of you have had much worse. My sympathies, and my thanks also to those who have shared legal and/or medical knowledge. It has been helpful.

I will try to get back to Al anon... I know I need it

[jacks11]

sorry OP, cross-posted with you.

I hope you find a way to come to terms with things, however they pan out. Grieving is a painful process. Guilt is part of that- but please don't let it fester. Even if his behaviour was triggered by distress caused by something which happened when you are around, that does not make you responsible. Your brother had the responsibility to address this, as part of addressing his alcohol dependency. He had support to do so, yet did not. it is his responsibility I am afraid and there is nothing you could have done to make him take the help on offer.

I worry from the tone of your post about your own mental health. I think you should seek some support for yourself. Good luck OP.

[LastFirstEverything]

I also know the four Cs but I don't really accept that I had no part in causing it: he is harbouring significant hurt deep down and some of that would have come from his early childhood experiences, when I was around...

Oh OP, I empathise with you so much. I feel exactly this for my late brother.

It is so very hard, so very upsetting and you are not to blame- but I totally understand that you feel responsibility. Try to be kind to yourself, self compassion is so important. You sound like a wonderful and supportive sister. No one is perfect, and nor is any situation. You have done what you can.

Thinking of you and your brother. I'm so sorry you are going through this.

[jacks11]

thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon

I also would second ziggy's comment regarding this. You're brother, and he alone, had the power to help himself. It sounds like he certainly had plenty of support had he chosen to do so.

If, despite all of the effort, time and money you as a family have put into trying to help your brother, he still continues to drink then I don't think it is fair or realistic to place all the blame on the shop-keeper. Understandable, but wrong.

[shockthemonkey]

Thank you everyone. I accept IWBU. But I am still grieving. I cannot accept that I am losing him to this. He is actually really suffering too, and wants to die. I would love to help him in a way that he can accept, but I can't. He wants to die and I want him to get better.

I don't know how I can possibly give up while he's still breathing.

I also know the four Cs but I don't really accept that I had no part in causing it: he is harbouring significant hurt deep down and some of that would have come from his early childhood experiences, when I was around...

It's true that it's not because of her that my brother will die, I accept that too. But it is true that she found it reasonable to carry on making money off of someone so ill, and whose illness she was enabling.

I also accept that he may not have appeared drunk, even though he would only have managed to get out after having first had a good fortifying tipple... he MAY not have appeared drunk to someone who didn't know him, although I am sure that if you were looking hard enough you would have been quite certain (slurring his words etc).

I won't be able to apologise to her because I have since returned home (I live abroad) and don't plan to go back there. But I am also still too wrapped up in his pain.

[NerrSnerr]

I'm really sorry OP. I have lost a sibling to alcohol so have an idea what you're going through.

There is nothing you can do to help unless he wants to help himself. You were unfair to the shop keeper and owe her an apology. He would have got his alcohol elsewhere or ending up having a fit. It's really not fair that you blame her for this, it's a horrendous situation but she is not to blame.

[LastFirstEverything]

for you OP. Meant to add them in my post.

[jacks11]

Shock

I can understand your frustration with the situation and the worry over your brother's health. It sounds like you've gone above and beyond the call of duty to assist your brother. Now, other than providing support if asked, there is nothing more you can do. If he doesn't want to stop, then there is no way you can do it for him- no matter how much money you throw at it. You need to look after yourself (and the same goes for your mum/sisters too). It is very hard.

All of that said, YABU with regard to the shop-keeper. Unless he was visibly intoxicated, then legally the shop-keeper has done nothing wrong. Morally? I think that is a little more complicated, but in essence it is not up to her to prevent him drinking. He probably would have gone somewhere else. I think it is easy to want to lash out and blame someone, have someone else to focus the anger on. It's understandable. But I do think you were in the wrong.

And I see you say he must have been constantly drunk and so evidently appeared intoxicated- I'm afraid this is not necessarily the case. It is possible, of course. However, I used to work in the gastro department and a big part of our patient cohort were those who had alcoholic liver disease. We used to manage a joint service with the alcohol cessation unit. Patients who had drunk really heavily over an extended period of time often built up fairly extreme tolerance and could have consumed considerable amount of alcohol with very few obvious effects. I am talking people drinking upwards of 70-100 units a day- so equal to/more than your brother. They would come to clinic or clerking on admission and there were signs but if all you were doing was a simple transaction, you wouldn't necessarily have picked it up.

I wouldn't go back to the shop and speak to them/threaten them with legal action/reporting. It's just going to upset you and change nothing. If you go back and continue to "confront them" the situation could escalate (if they view it as harassment). Either report them to the authorities and let them investigate or let it go..

[LastFirstEverything]

thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon

Saying this is very unfair of you OP. It's not due to her inaction. It's due entirely to your brother.


But, I am very sorry that you are going through this, and I'm very sorry that he is so ill now. It's very, very hard.

My brother died from a heroin overdose, and although some people afterwards blamed the dealer, I really couldn't. It was his (db's) life, his choices that killed him. The years of family trying to help, the years of misery for so many people that he caused- it is very, very difficult.

I do understand where you're coming from to an extent, but don't blame the woman at the off license.

[Arkwright]

Yabvu you need to go and apologise. When I read your title I assumed it was selling to underage children. It's not the shops place to stop your brother drinking.

[NotMeNotYouNotAnyone]

I'm sorry your brother is so illOP but yabu re shopkeeper.

I can see why you want to blame someone, but it's not the shopkeepers fault. If they wouldn't sell it he would steal it or (whether you refuse to believe it or not) go somewhere else or get someone to buy it for him. He's an addict, he will do whatever it takes to get alcohol. Maybe the shop staff were worried about him getting violent if they refused to serve him (whether true or not, it's scary thought for often young staff on min wage).

Stop fighting a losing argument on here OP and spend time with your brother while you can

[WishICouldThinkOfACoolUsername]

I hold an alcohol licence and I have huge sympathy for you OP, it must be a horrible situation. However, as per the comments above, it is extremely harsh of you (as well as being unfair) to harass the licensee in this way. I've served customers like your brother - however, as you will be aware, the more an alcoholic drinks, the more they need to drink to become "drunk". However, in a rural setting, we had the further moral question of "will they get in the car and drive elsewhere (whilst potentially over the limit) and possibly have a accident? There's no easy answer. Furthermore, the off-sales training I've attended points out that there is no legal definition of "drunk" - it's subjective. If your brother was able to walk into the shop in question, request and pay for the whiskey without falling over, or being rude and abusive, then the shop would be well within their rights to accept that he was sober enough to be served. Additionally - how do you know who was serving him? If you are not local, you are unlikely to know the full ins and outs of the shop staffing so it could have been a number of different people serving him over the course of a week.

I disagree with OneEpisode - there is no way you have any legal case against the shop; the onus would be on you to prove that he was so drunk that they shouldn't have served him. I think it's extremely unlikely that you would be able to prove that. I would focus your energy/resources on supporting your brother with what is a medical condition, not hounding a licensee who in all likelyhood has done nothing wrong. As Peppa pointed out, you wouldn't have chased a shop for selling cigarettes to someone dying of lung cancer (although I do agree with you there is a difference between this situation and an obese person buying a mars bar).

Good luck and

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

shockthemonkey,

Your anger is understandable but you directed it at the wrong person. The person you need to be really angry at is your brother.

re your comment:-

"Thanks for the support. I have spent ten years, hundreds of man-hours and thousands of pounds trying to save my brother, so I do think I am focusing on helping him, thanks. He lived with me for six months, that's a lot of care as he is not very self-sufficient... I have flown thirteen hours each way to come to his aid and bring him back home, or paid to have interventionists accompany him business class across the Atlantic. I have also shed many many tears. I have no money left for this problem after the Priory, Betty Ford and another clinic in Thailand (cannot remember name)... four professional interventions, two private hospitals and numerous detox centres. You cannot imagine the time, money and emotion that has gone into the whole problem already, and not just by me but also my mother and sisters".

The 3cs re alcoholism:-
You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

He has made a choice here and that is one of drink; alcohol is truly a cruel mistress. His primary relationship is with drink.

Unfortunately your entire family has fallen into the same enabling trap; all these actions were simply enabling him and did not help him or you. All this gave you as as a family was a false sense of control.

Your family of origin could well further half bankrupt themselves trying to save him and you will still not succeed. He is someone who does not want your support (he has well and truly thrown all that back at you) or to be rescued and or saved by you all.

Unless the will to address his alcoholism comes from him and he alone, no familial interventions will work. Familial coercion never ever works.

Someone now has to say enough and walk away. Your own recovery will only begin when you yourself have got off the merry go around that is his alcoholism.

[lazyarse123]

I'm really sorry for your brother and the rest of your family as they are obviously affected by this. But i work in a shop and it is very difficult to deal with this sort of thing. If a person if obviously intoxicated we are not allowed to serve them, but at the same time we have to be careful if for example we are serving alone (rest of staff in warehouse) you never know if they will become violent or abusive. We do have a regular customer who we have refused to serve, the last time we refused him we noticed he was driving, and i actually called police and informed them. He still comes in but now he walks.

[MistressDeeCee]

Its not the shopkeeper's fault, your DB is an adult. However I can completely understand why you were upset. I admire you for marching into the shop in your DBs defence though, wish I had a sister like you!

[Littleelffriend]

You probably owe her an apology tbh

[ADishBestEatenCold]

I am so sorry for and about your brother, shockthemonkey, and for you and your family who have had to repeatedly face the effects of his addiction.

But this "thanks to her inaction my brother will probably die quite soon" is just not true.

I can understand why you are saying it, why you feel it, but you must already know it is not true.

[ComposHatComesBack]

B) a policeman in uniform C) a known prostitute

Anyone know the reasoning behind these two, they just sound a bit random and how do you know if someone is a prostitute??



I really don't want to derail this thread, but the relevant act (may actually be repealed by the 2003 Licencing Act) dates from the early 20th century or even earlier. It was to prevent pubs being used as venues for soliciting. I guess Policemen was to stop beat officers nipping into pubs for a drink whilst being on patrol and ending up unable to do their job.

[expatinscotland]

I'd have thrown you out of my shop. The shopkeeper isn't responsible for policing your brother.


'When we arrived to get him this last time, my brother was so unwell he could hardly stand. He would definitely not have made it to the second nearest off-licence had this shop refused to serve him, or even just bothered to do anything more than take his money and turn a blind eye. And since he was drinking two litres of whisky a day, he would have been drunk constantly... drunk enough to refuse to serve, if you bothered to take a proper look.'

You have no idea if this is true at all. There's a guy in the flat downstairs who drinks like this and he does not appear drunk until he is well on.

Your brother's condition is not the shopkeeper's fault. He's an adult. It's a business, not a clinic. You'd have to prove he was visibly intoxicated when he went in there.