To expect my students to show a teensy amount of initiative?

[dontrunwithscissors]

I'm an academic in the Humanities. I'm currently teaching a third year class & they're driving me mad. (I work in Scotland so their degree results are based on grades in years 3 and 4.)

In order to make life as 'easy' as possible, the tutorial reading is either available digitally or I provide a photocopy. They're usually expected to read 40-50 pages so hardly a huge amount.

At the start of the semester, I warned them that there had been some issues with the digitisation license and that it was possible that some materials may end up not being available. I also explained that I don't get any notice in situations like this & to let me know straight away if there were any problems.

So, it turns out that the main text for today's class has disappeared from the digitised texts. The only person on the course of 23 students emailed me to tell me at 4pm yesterday. Class is at 10am today. There are 3 students giving class presentations today that's worth 15% of the final grade

AIBU to expect students to have bloody well pulled themself together and 1) attempted to access the reading earlier; 2) highlighted the problem earlier. I'm particularly shocked that none of the people presenting this week figured to ask for it.

I'm pissed off with students being 'babied'. It gets worse by the year. They want everything on a plate and go running to mummy and daddy when they don't get the 2:1 they assume they will get. They can't be arsed to read (keeping in mind that this is a humanities degree so reading widely is a basic requirement.) Ive even had notes from parents explaining that their snowflake should be allowed to submit work late becauSe they're not good at planning or had to go to a wedding...

Apologies for typos. I'm on my phone + on the bus n

with a spreadsheet or constructing a document or a database or researching online they are as illiterate as my MIL

My DC are being taught this in their primary school so might improve in a few years.

I have still noticed a difference. I came to such thing as a teenager and young adult the user interfaces were often badly designed and help pages were a crap shoot at how helpful they were.

So first thing I'll do is look around at functions and help pages and have a play.

DD1 recently need to do a task - she didn't have instructions so instead of playing around she immediately came and asked us. We hadn't used the software so did tried a few likely things didn't work pulled down menu and it was an option. Her friend a few days later had same issue - didn't play around but rang us.

They have the initiative to ask for help - but don't automatically play round or look at help files.

Have another child - one that if there a button will push it to see what will happens and breaks a lot of stuff taking things apart to see how they work - he automatically plays round and tries different things - even with detailed list of instructions he'll go off piste and learn things along the way. I can't leave an lap top logged in as he'll be there finding all kinds of stuff on internet - which isn't always what we want. He's a much harder child to manage - I wonder if we at time stifle that urge to learn he has. He does increasingly want the right answer.

I have to say that many of the students with disabilities or mental health difficulties are among the most persistent students who do actually show a good amount of initiative. I have students with dyslexia who take twice or three times as long as everyone else to read the texts and they still read them every week.

When I went to university, a long time ago, we would have been thrown out of the seminar room if it became clear we had not read the text. And it did happen.

I think the entire education system has been corrupted by an efficiency rationale whereby students are encouraged to apply to minimum effective dose to achieve acceptable results.

It doesn't just stop at students, it's observable in the way that schools must deal with ofsted and teachers must deal with curriculums.

You have a point Kondos and I worry as parents we've collude with that.

Children's last school swapped us with homework that had to be done or they lost playtime - mostly project work or badly copies worksheets - often felt like parent homework. We did take a do bare min approach - so we had time for other stuff.

New school much less homework - now trying to get the children to do more than the bare minimum and make a effort as they have more time there is not unnaturally bit of resistance from them.

We didn't get homework till secondary and we were motivated to try hard with it partly because it was new and grown up - they won't have that.

And there is grade inflation. When I went to University a 2:2 was the standard degree. First were rare and only students who were very bright, and worked very hard, got them. Of the 2 who got firsts in my year, one went on to become a lecturer on the subject, the other went on to do research and published books on the subject.

That doesn't prove grade inflation, though. It could be that teachers have got better at teaching.

The thing is many graduate employers these days demand not only a 2:1 but individual module marks so it is not surprising that this rubs off onto students who are already stressed about post degree employment . In my day as long as you got a second of some kind you were practically guaranteed a job .
Also remember this is the generation who whilst at school have spent years scratching around for an extra UMS , being encouraged to appeal grade boundaries and being taught to the test . Any inclination to broaden the topic or study something not on the A level syllabus for interest is squashed by the need to confirm to the incredibly rigid and prescriptive mark scheme .

They know no different . Also the lack if opportunities particularly for school leavers with good humanities A level grades has meant that many feel they have little choice but to go to university and get the required degree.I am struck by how many of my dses contemporaries have not enjoyed university and see it as a necessary evil rather than my generation for whom it was an exciting opportunity / adventure.

No it doesn't. Firsts were supposed to be for exceptional students, 2:1's for great students, and 2:2's for average good students. When most are getting 2:1's, that is grade inflation.

I just think the whole system is screwed. I wouldn't advise any 18 year old to go to university straight out of school. Take a couple of years, look around, see if you can get some work experience, figure out what you really want to do and the route you need to take. Don't feel pushed and bullied into going straight into HE.

To the poster who said that students nowadays seem to anxious and lacking in spark, is it any wonder?? HE isn't about the wonder and joy of learning and self-discovery any more. It SHOULD be, but it isn't. Those days are gone. With thousands and thousands more people graduating every year it's a bunfight for jobs. Except there aren't any graduate jobs so it's a choice of zero hours contract job or doing a masters to the tune of £8k or so.

The system desperately needs overhauling. The three-year degree model is archaic. It has been the same for hundreds of years and it just isn't workable any more in my opinion. Sandwich degrees and part-time attendance should become the norm, not the exception.

Having said that, a lot of young people are twats and should pull their heads out of their arses. But parents and the secondary education system enable this.

Please note that I don't blame academics for any of this. Higher powers are screwing everything up.

I can relate to so much of this. Neoliberal policies from senior management and unrealistic expectations from students.

Anecdotally, from friends and colleagues, I get the impression the entitlement is a bit worse, if anything, at RG institutions. Does that chime with anyone?

However, I do want to add a note of positivity in that I'm really chuffed after a 9am seminar today, where I'd added something on the VLE that I wanted them to read, not on the actual module list - a journal article - which is always risky. And they almost all turned up, and had downloaded and read it, and engaged in a productive conversation about it. So I'm happy right now!

If you want to see the whole 'I paid 9K' whingeing awfulness of it all - download YikYak. And then sit on your hands.

Some of you sound like meryl Streep in the devil wears Prada!

When I started a rg degree pre Uni fees in a humanities subject tutorials were more often than not an hour of excruciating silence where the tutor tried to get some one to say something but it was like getting blood from a stone.

The union was always full and the library usually empty.

When the £1000 pa fees came in I saw a change. Students started having 20hr pt jobs (banned when I started) and the library was busier and the union quieter.

I think there's a balance that was lost somewhere along the line.

Now students do see themselves as consumers who expect a 2:1 for their cash debt.

Please note that I don't blame academics for any of this

Thanks that's nice of you to say that (please, I'm not being sarcastic, really). I think we try hard not to blame ourselves, but personally, I find it hard to resist not absorbing and replicating the angst & anxiety of some of my students! And wondering what I'm doing wrong.

I think that sometimes the force of our frustration is an indication of the fact that we care. I really want my students to experience the excitement, the joy, the deep satisfaction of being let loose in a library, reading for seminars, finding stuff out. Oh I'd love to be starting it all again - it's so exciting & joyous.

Problem is, although on reflection, I would hope that most people would conclude that it's not logical or reasonable to blame academics, we are at the front line, on the firing line. Our careers are materially affected by NSS (stupid stupid unscientific unreliable survey that it is) and module surveys, and if a student appeals or complains, while colleagues understand, there is always a question, a doubt. I mentor PhD students who do teaching for us, and they are shocked at the attitudes of some of our undergrads, and are really having to develop a great deal of resilience.

cleaty, it really doesn't prove that.

Grade inflation may well exist. But merely stating that more students get 2:1s is not proof of it, and I think it's dubious to presume it must be that and not better teaching.

Write this last night but it seems to have got lost in the ether.

When I was at uni I was a single mum to a toddler/pre-schooler, going through a very messy divorce, finances repeatedly messed up by others, coping with physical health issues.

In the first year I had to move house (marital home a married quarter) with no help or money, had no support network, had a breakdown in 3rd year culminating in agoraphobia for 2 months. Went back to uni with support from uni and other students. Including literal hand holding to go into lecture theatres.

Then had a serious car accident, lost transport and this added to both physical and mental health issues.

Through all that whenever an assignment was issued my first response was to get started, by finding the resources however possible.

Yet still in 3rd year there were students who gave up at the first hurdle, a number completely unaware that there was hard copy and microfiche copies of journal articles on the top floor of the library if there was a problem accessing online and that we could access the library at the 2 other universities in our town! We were told all this at the beginning of each year.

There were other students who were single parents, carers, disabled themselves and they managed to get the reading done ahead of seminars/lectures so I really see no excuse for other students!

In addition yy to the attitude towards students with outside issues. I regularly experienced this with younger 'better' (according to them - not reflected in their marks!) students not wanting to work with me as I couldn't easily do eve/weekend meetups (but we had plenty of free hours within office hours) and the prejudice towards my friends (one blind, one in a wheelchair) with regard to group work was disgusting!

I do think prt of it is special snowflake parenting but also too much govt interference at secondary level resulting in teachers under pressure to teach only to the exams, there's no time to go off curriculum and its discouraged!

I was at secondary in the 80's and we were encouraged to enjoy education and look beyond what we were being taught and question what we were being taught.

When I did my dissertation in 3rd year, I had to travel to the British Library a number of times to look at original documents, as nothing was online.
I don't remember actually being taught to reference. We were given a booklet on this, and expected to just read and do it.

I do remember plenty of students skiving. But if they failed to get a decent mark it was seen rightly as totally their own fault.

And I don't remember seminars with nobody talking. But as I said our tutors were very strict and simply threw you out if it was obvious you had not read the text or could not talk about it. Not a RG university by the way.

I am thankful though that we did not have group work.

I have to say that many of the students with disabilities or mental health difficulties are among the most persistent

I am very much hoping DS will be one of them. First year of uni is not proving easy for him at all (he's autistic).

Last week he was supposed to be part of a joint project with a planned meet-up time. He went to the agreed place that afternoon, waited, texted, Facebooked them... and eventually found that the others had decided to 'chat it over in the bar' instead, but hadn't told him.

Nice little autism triple-whammy there, with changed plans, social and communication chaos, and an impossibly noisy environment thrown in. So instead of a productive afternoon, he went into meltdown (privately; he hates being seen in that state) and spent the evening trying to recover.

The next day, he determinedly chased them up; established what had been decided; selected something they hadn't covered, and agreed to take that bit and work on it separately.

I'm proud of him, but I don't know how long he'll cope. Normal student life is so hard on him.

Well done to your son, ATailofTwoKitties - the other students displayed behaviour that no tutor would condone. And he's finding coping strategies for group work, which - in most jobs in a knowledge-based economy - will be essential for future careers.

IME a lot of employers say the toughest skill that they need graduate-level employees is the ability to work in a team. A so-called "soft skill" but actually one of the hardest things to do.

I had the joy of reading UCAS statements for the first time today. I was surprised by how articulate the vast majority were. Am I being cynical in assuming that schools have a big input in checking/telling them what to write? So many of the applicants had masses of volunteering/extra curricular achievements. I've never had involvement with admissions. (Avoided it for 12 years )

Apparently we have over 1200 applicants for 120 places.

dontrun have you not read the 'Higher Education' forum on MN, or The Student Room? Some fee-paying schools practically buy grant writers for some of their pupils.

I do find that a lot of my more recent trainees and new hires are very narrow, in that they haven't got good general knowledge of politics, world affairs, literature etc. I don't expect their generation to have the same knowledge and interests as mine, but to have a general awareness. At least, to have an enthusiasm about something. Increasingly, I have to tell them a lot of background and context before I let them loose on projects.

Had to warn our daughter when she went off to study Eng Lit not to be thrown by the students who had got in with straight As as they been to schools where they were spoonfed. She went to the local college where she was taught to work efficiently. To her surprise she's doing very well compared to others on the course through hard graft and a good brain. But she comes across others who can't be bothered to do the work...

My VC uses the analogy that paying university fees is like paying a gym membership - it buys you access to facilities, equipment, knowledge, a social sphere and teachers but you will only get out of it what you put in.

I see so many of these 'pathologically anxious' students who have little self reliance and awareness of what a motivated independent learner needs to do and be. It is very sad. Our student intake has a high proportion of privately educated kids.

I have made damn sure though none of my own children end up like that. Always refused to do their homework, encouraged them to take risks and be creative, and ensured they knew they were not educational cattle and their future would not fall apart if they failed their exams as their schools were trying to tell them (i explain teachers are doing that because they are under extreme pressure to improve performance and league table rankings). You can keep taking the ones you need til you pas - education is not limited by age.

Eldest two are doing very well in great jobs and travelling widely. Second two are following nicely in their footsteps and are sometimes a little too bolshy - 13 year old DD3 keeps quoting Sir Ken to her maths teacher (maths not being her strongest subject! )

I see it as the best gifts I can give them -self esteem and self reliance. And, no, they don't go to private schools.

SLT are very keen on neoliberal metaphors like the gym - I think it works up to a point, but the problem is that being a member of a university itsn't really 'like' anything else - and a degree isn't like a nicely toned body! We've been making a real effort to convey what it means to be part of academia, what students' roles are within that community and in the production of knowledge, and talking about what a university is, rather than what it is like.

I do agree that it makes sense to think in terms of what you put in - but my problem with a gym membership analogy is that for me and many others, the very fact that I do pay means that I tend to feel it's up to me whether I go or not, and nobody else's business. Also my attendance at the gym has no effect on anyone else!

I have learnt things from my gym though! Like when I went to a class and half the people who'd booked on didn't show up, and the teacher was huffing and puffing and saying 'tsk, there's no way there are going to be 30 here, what do people do, just book and no show up??'

And I thought 'oh shut up, I'm here, is that not good enough for you? I don't want to hear your bad mood about people who aren't here..... oh wait'.

To be honest I genuinely do not care if students CBA to come to my classes its their loss and wasted money, I care not one bit if they don't get their essays in on time and am not interested in their excuses. I just want to engage and spend time with like minded adults who love the subject and want to learn - and fortunately my subject is one that attracts a lot of marvellous students including a lot of mature students who do. I have never had a mature student who didn't wholeheartedly appreciate and value the opportunity they had - and I was one myself having left school at 16 -they are demanding in their own way but its a good way!

But for some reason I have to spend a lot of time pretending I do care, chasing them up, taking registers, approving extensions and resetting deadlines. They are not children and they are here of their own volition. When I run a University there will be no deadlines and I will say - here is the work, here is the lab, lecture and tutorial timetable, submit it when you want, we will be marking work for a period of two weeks twice a year only and if you miss the window or a compulsory lab practical you will have to wait until the next one. And leave them to it.

Ambitious and motivated students could graduate in three years or less and others will just keep having to pay fees until they can get their act together.

But I have to take registers and play the game and listen to excuse after excuse as to why it is not their fault and deadline stress is somehow unfair rather than a perfectly normal real life thing we all have to deal with. It is an arse-covering exercise so we can show when they do fail/not get the grade they believe they are entitled to that they didn't come to class so it's not down to poor teaching but their non-attendance. It's a waste of everyone's time.