To expect my students to show a teensy amount of initiative?

[dontrunwithscissors]

I'm an academic in the Humanities. I'm currently teaching a third year class & they're driving me mad. (I work in Scotland so their degree results are based on grades in years 3 and 4.)

In order to make life as 'easy' as possible, the tutorial reading is either available digitally or I provide a photocopy. They're usually expected to read 40-50 pages so hardly a huge amount.

At the start of the semester, I warned them that there had been some issues with the digitisation license and that it was possible that some materials may end up not being available. I also explained that I don't get any notice in situations like this & to let me know straight away if there were any problems.

So, it turns out that the main text for today's class has disappeared from the digitised texts. The only person on the course of 23 students emailed me to tell me at 4pm yesterday. Class is at 10am today. There are 3 students giving class presentations today that's worth 15% of the final grade

AIBU to expect students to have bloody well pulled themself together and 1) attempted to access the reading earlier; 2) highlighted the problem earlier. I'm particularly shocked that none of the people presenting this week figured to ask for it.

I'm pissed off with students being 'babied'. It gets worse by the year. They want everything on a plate and go running to mummy and daddy when they don't get the 2:1 they assume they will get. They can't be arsed to read (keeping in mind that this is a humanities degree so reading widely is a basic requirement.) Ive even had notes from parents explaining that their snowflake should be allowed to submit work late becauSe they're not good at planning or had to go to a wedding...

Apologies for typos. I'm on my phone + on the bus n

I it's anyone's 'fault', it's the IT system. What happens when similar situations emerge in the world of work? Shrug their shoulders?

Should I be obsessively checking every digitised source each day just in case ? There are hundreds of online sources. This is only the 2nd to actually cause a problem this semester, but knowing that it's happened in earlier years, i made sure they were aware of the possibility and what to do.

It's not your students' job to check that the online facilities are working properly. That would be your job. I don't think it has anything to do with whether they are paying for their degrees or not, of course they're entitled to expect that texts that they're told will be uploaded are actually uploaded

Sadly, it's not usually within the lecturer's powers to ensure this. We are at the mercy of a) IT systems; b) IT support; and c) external commercial providers who may make changes mid-term.

Although IME, it's usually students who don't take the time to work out how to use a) the library, or b) the VLE.

Hm well I guess it depends on the university. I taught courses where I set the reading list and was responsible for passing this on to the department staff who would upload the stuff to blackboard (the system we used). But I also had the capability to upload pdfs myself. Do you really use teach using an online system you don't have the capability to make changes to yourself? Obviously if the entire online system goes down then that's a different matter, but here it seems that a pdf has not been uploaded properly. that's something that could and should have been checked by the lecturer in good time, and which I really doubt it's not in the lecturer's power to sort out.

BTW, the chapter was uploaded. I'd checked it a couple of weeks ago. It disappeared from the system somewhere between then and yesterday. The only way to check this is to access my online reading list and check through each item individually. The system is shit.

Ack well yes that does sound shit, but if you couldn't be bothered to check through each item individually a week in advance (presumably only one or two items if 40-50pp) I think it's a bit harsh to expect your students to do the same.

mellojello here's what the OP says in her first post: it shows that it's clearly not her lack of diligence, but an instability with the VLE and the university's digitisation licence.

I warned them that there had been some issues with the digitisation license and that it was possible that some materials may end up not being available

I'm assuming that the OP uploaded everything as required. And I know I do a weekly check on my VLE sites to see that everything's as it should be. But if there's a fault caused by IT nonsupport or an external 3rd party, then it is hardly an indication that the lecturer is not doing her job.

I agree with theycallmemellojello. The point I was trying to make is that it is not the fault of the student if the facilities are unreliable. Saying that I do understand how frustrating it can be at times. I work in a support role and also have to deal with problems that arise because they have left things to the last minute and it is never their fault. All I was trying to say is that some students have other commitments outside of university and are trying to juggle family, work etc... I can understand their frustration if they set some time aside to do some work and then are unable to do so because things aren't working as they should be.

But the OP also implied that it's somehow the fault of the students for not picking up on it! I'd be inclined to agree that it's just one of those things, shit for students but basically a problem of underfunding. What I don't get is the idea that it's the fault of the students.

I also understand that this is not the fault of the tutor either but the wider system.

I think it's a bit harsh to expect your students to do the same

And this is the sort of attitude which leads to needy, useless lacking-in-nous students! dontrun is the lecturer here, not the student. It is the students' responsibility to ensure that they have the reading for a seminar. They should very well be expected to check for their set reading in good time to prepare for the seminar. It's about planning & preparation.

Don't assume that the only thing uploadable onto a VLE is a pdf: the system we use (Moodle, I think) has links through to digitised resources residing in the (virtual) library, provided not by me, but by 3rd party providers (who generally charge the earth to universities). If their server is out, or they've changed their provision, it is hardly something in any lecturer's control.

In that situation, students need to take initiative, and find alternative readings. But the problem is, many don't. They bleat about not being able to find the reading - as if that's the only book in the world!

I have some lovely, engaged, hardworking and positive students. They are the ones that make my job worthwhile. That said, about 70% of my lot are waiting for information to be handed to them, and are complaining if it isn't. A third year ugrad came to a dissertation supervision with me the other day without a laptop, pen, notebook or any of the work he had done. He said "oh, was I supposed to bring something to show you?". He then told me he was aiming for a First.

Last week I had the father of a 19 year old ugrad email me asking for a report on his child's studies and requesting a meeting so I could update him on his child's performance and attendance. He told me this was because he was investing financially in his son's future and thus am "obliged" to give him this information. Er, no, I'm not. I usually have contact from a parent once a week. My standard reply is - and has to be - "due to data protection I cannot disclose if your child is a student here". If there's concern about a student's welfare I go above and beyond to try and help, but all of this adds to the 50 hours I week I spend working on teaching, marking, prep, research, grant writing, paper writing, committee membership and my (heavy) departmental admin role.

Our intake has tripled over the last six years. The number of staff has not.

Because they left it to the last minute.
When I was a student there were no VLEs, but there was a college library and limited loans. So you would go and hunt down your reading as soon as you got the list to give you time to recall books that someone else had or try another library if it had unaccountably gone missing from that one. It was your responsibility to find the book. You wouldn't have dared turn up at a tutorial and say 'sorry, I haven't done the essay because I only went to find the book yesterday and someone else had it out.'
These days, a week would give you time to get the reading reuploaded if it has disappeared.

OK, imagine this. You are really, really pushed for time - you literally cannot clear your workload in 6 hours a week. You try to do a good job with your teaching, and to provide students with a rich range of resources to stimulate them. You spend hours before the course starts making sure these are all uploaded and available on the web. Moreover, you've put in a backup system, telling students to notify you if an item vanishes. And what's more, you've ensured there are backup items in the library on short term loan. You also know that they can probably download everything from an illegal site too, if push comes to shove You should simply not have to go back and back and back checking and rechecking the work that you've done has not inexplicably vanished because some third party provider has made a decision without notifying you! It's absolutely bonkers!

In this day and age, you would think someone, somewhere could put together a decent Virtual Learning Environment where things didn't just vanish without trace. Would it be so difficult to send lecturers an email notifying them that a source had been removed? It's absolutely crazy that systems like Blackboard are so completely SHIT when what is required is so bloody simple. If anyone entrepreneurial is reading this: if you put together a VLE environment that actually works and that has a decent interface making it easy to use (i.e one that has had a graphic designer take a cursory look at it), there is the opportunity to make big bucks, because I think most academics would happily shoot the people who make the current ones.

The student issue is a bit of a separate one. What really makes me sad is that as students pay more and more for education, many seem to value it less and less. It is a paradox to me that as students get in more and more debt to study, they can see less value in learning for learning's sake, and it becomes all about doing the minimum to get a grade. What happened to developing a lifelong passion for a subject, which you love and are endlessly curious about? It's the best way both to enjoy your degree AND to do really well.

I work in a University and am horrified at how helpless the students are. They expect everything spoon feeding to them.

I expect it's to to do with them now being viewed as more "customers" than students and also they are a product of the modern education system which wants them to jump through very clearly delineated hoops.

When I was a student there were no VLEs, but there was a college library and limited loans. So you would go and hunt down your reading as soon as you got the list to give you time to recall books that someone else had or try another library if it had unaccountably gone missing from that one. It was your responsibility to find the book. You wouldn't have dared turn up at a tutorial and say 'sorry, I haven't done the essay because I only went to find the book yesterday and someone else had it out.'

Erp I went to Cambridge 15 years ago and this happened all the time! You'd search for a book in the department/university/various college libraries, but often to no avail (since the colleges were crap at coordinating supervisions so numerous people would often be supervised on the same subject in a single week). So you wouldn't read that book. That was a normal part of being a student in those days - you were reliant on physical resources that could fail. Uploading pdfs is meant to alleviate the issue, but doesn't always work. But lets not pretend that students of yore were perfectly diligent, nor that library resources were uniformly brilliant in times gone by.

because I think most academics would happily shoot the people who make the current ones

Yes yes yes! More avidly than I would shoot Rob Titchener!

Re the person who thinks it's best to do the reading the night before so it's fresh in your mind - sure, this is reasonable and some people work best that way, but wouldn't you check you have the resources first? Suppose your Internet goes down the night before?

I'm not sure parents are the main problem.
Children are so precious, children are always right, children should be given everything, everybody wins, no one loses in any school race, all makes me want to vomit, and we now have a generation of very self entitled children, but I can't see the tide turning any time soon.

You are definitely NBU. They should be able to source material for themselves from your reading list.

They sound like helpless babies. Bodes terribly badly for the world of work I'm afraid - but I agree it permeates the entire learning culture these days.

There's a much bigger debate to be had about the role of universities and their modern purpose - and some clarity on this would help inform discussions on how they should be funded and what the expectations are for both students and uni staff.

Well - it's the course leader's job because they're the one getting paid for it! And the university has decided for better or worse that when you teach a course you're also expected to upload materials.

Not necessarily - the OP seems to be saying it's not within her control. I've taught courses where I had nothing to do with providing the materials.

Incidentally, I admit, I would do the reading the night before, and would fail to check the link until then.

I still would as a teacher - I'm last minute.

But I would be aware that was my risk, too.

Re. libraries - at mine, we have a pretty large collection of set texts, but not enough for everyone to have one (obviously). Last year I had piteous complaints from students saying they had been unable to buy a copy of the book on Amazon/in Heffers. Which was hard on them. And I felt very sorry, until I checked the library and saw a dozen unused copies lying on the shelf!

I think I am older than you, Jello...

I think I agree with your approach Jeanne - but I don't see any evidence in the OP that the students are not accepting that it's their risk. they're taking the risk they won't be able to access the materials and therefore won't be able to prepare for the class. the OP is just pissed off that they've taken that risk - whereas I think it's entirely the students' call.

I don't think things are quite as bad as some have said on this thread. I never get contacted by parents and if I did, would direct them to the Director of Education who would tell them where to go!

Most of my students are quite diligent, and most do the readings, though many do lack initiative about searching for sources. I solve this by teaching them how to search for sources at the start of my module, where to look (it takes about 5 min of one lesson) and then I tell them not to ask me for any additional readings (bar the compulsory two and the suggested readings) and if they are not available for some reason, to search for others. This stops them pestering me if things aren't available (although I would be happy to check the compulsory readings if not on our VLE system).

Yes, they do need a bit of spoon-feeding about how to learn skills like reading material/finding new sources, but once they are taught this basic stuff, they do very well in the main. I think of it as like baby birds being pushed off a cliff! And, the ones that just rely on the two papers we covered in class get a 2:2, and they know this in advance.

I think it is frustrating to have very dependent students, but also lecturers could do just a tiny bit more to structure learning for students, given they don't come knowing all this stuff.

The other thing that is quite funny is that every time we survey parents or students, they say they want 'more contact time'. Strangely, out of my open office hours last term, I was alone in my room til week 8. Actually many students don't want more engagement with lecturers at all in my experience.