To expect my students to show a teensy amount of initiative?

[dontrunwithscissors]

I'm an academic in the Humanities. I'm currently teaching a third year class & they're driving me mad. (I work in Scotland so their degree results are based on grades in years 3 and 4.)

In order to make life as 'easy' as possible, the tutorial reading is either available digitally or I provide a photocopy. They're usually expected to read 40-50 pages so hardly a huge amount.

At the start of the semester, I warned them that there had been some issues with the digitisation license and that it was possible that some materials may end up not being available. I also explained that I don't get any notice in situations like this & to let me know straight away if there were any problems.

So, it turns out that the main text for today's class has disappeared from the digitised texts. The only person on the course of 23 students emailed me to tell me at 4pm yesterday. Class is at 10am today. There are 3 students giving class presentations today that's worth 15% of the final grade

AIBU to expect students to have bloody well pulled themself together and 1) attempted to access the reading earlier; 2) highlighted the problem earlier. I'm particularly shocked that none of the people presenting this week figured to ask for it.

I'm pissed off with students being 'babied'. It gets worse by the year. They want everything on a plate and go running to mummy and daddy when they don't get the 2:1 they assume they will get. They can't be arsed to read (keeping in mind that this is a humanities degree so reading widely is a basic requirement.) Ive even had notes from parents explaining that their snowflake should be allowed to submit work late becauSe they're not good at planning or had to go to a wedding...

Apologies for typos. I'm on my phone + on the bus n

I think that the problems written about start in the reception class with a bunch of five year olds. Kids are completely cocooned from the experience of failure by their schools and parents. There is no freedom to take risks for either teachers or chikdren.

Universities are in a position where there is no moviation to keep costs down. There are no consequences for a student not paying off their debts to either the student or the university. Students are income and it does not matter if they are as thick as mince. The whole thing has become one long gravy train that just increases the national debt. It would be interesting if a university's funding was linked to their income. Options like the Open University generate less debt than many top universities. Maybe universities should be paid a bonus if their graduates are in employment that pays back the student loans.

I had this discussion on a thread with a ABetaDad once and I completely agree with him that the number of full time degree students needs to be reduced. Universities need to generate income for the uk rather than debt.

I read physics at a red brick uni. I wasn't really bright enough for the course and with hindsight I would have been better doing a vocational course at an ex poly.

Sorry to only just get back here. I was teaching all morning.

Two out of 23 students had got the book from the library. The rest hadn't read it. What has bugged me as much as anything is that I specifically told them in week 1 that there are problems with the digitisation system and that if they spotted any problems, they should email it and I would fix it. I explained that I can sometimes see things on the VLE that they can't. (The whole system is a shambles, but everything now revolves around the virtual learning environment.)

Some random comments:

• The Internet has a lot to do with these problems. The overwhelming majority of students expect reading to be available electronically. Heaven forbid they actually have to go to the library.

• Students think it's OK to email me on a Saturday evening about a presentation or essay due on Monday, and expect a reply within 24 hours. I had a student complain because she'd emailed me at 9pm on a Friday and I didn't reply until 10am on Monday. Part of the problem is that I often respond to emails on a weekend or evening. I should stop.

• The fact that most students at my university aren't paying tuition fees (ie Scottish and European students) means that we're not under quite so much pressure to justify our existence as in England. Nevertheless, I've had to explain to students that they're 'paying' for an education, not a degree.

• Everyone I work with puts huge effort into their teaching. I love teaching, but it can be soul destroying when far too many students are only interested in doing the minimum to get their degree. I know that some of them are under huge pressure to work, but we can't allow that to be a reason for slipping standards. If you can't cope, do a part time degree.

• I've seen grade inflation over the last couple of years (even so, we've been told by externals that we are too tough and should give out more firsts). The sciences at my institution forced through a new marking scale out of 21 a few years ago. It's definitely pushed the balance toward far more 2:1s. (We in the Humanities protested to no avail.)

• I would like to see a GPA system. Every year I see some students getting 2:1s and wonder how they managed it. Then I see other talented students who just miss out on a first and I feel so sorry for them. It shouldn't be possible for such a wide range of abilities to all be awarded the same grade. (The answer is that the new grading system gives students up to 5 points for failing. They can get a marginal fail, a clear fail, or a bad fail. Even a bad fail (which might be for extensive plagiarism gets them 2 points

• I do have some wonderful students who are a pleasure to teach. I still remember those students years later. They're committed, hard-working and passionate. It's not necessarily about their academic ability, but their ability to think for themselves and have a hunger for knowledge. What many students don't seem to recognise is that they may need a reference from me after they graduate. You bet I make sure the employers know about the ones who were lazy arses.

Last point! I seem to have got a bad bunch of students this year. There are a couple who are good, but overall it's exhausting. It's probably the worst semester I've had.

Youremywifenow has it spot on- so many of them are working (which I also did as an undergrad, though it wasn't usual and meant I missed out on a lot of things) not to keep body and soul together, but to sustain a semi-luxury lifestyle - smart private halls in the city centre (which cost them more than the rent on my 2 bedroom flat on the main bus route to the city - 15 minutes away), hair extensions and fake tans, running cars, long-haul trips in term etc - that didn't used to be commensurate with the student lifestyle. There are also far more contact hours -as that's what parents seem to want - so instead of the 3 hours a week they would have had in the 1990s, they now have 15: and miss a fair proportion of those because of work as it is. There is often a real lack of resilience for daily life as well, to an extent that is deeply troubling.

Students should be the main focus of most universities, as for the majority, that's where the bulk of their income comes from, rather than research grants. However, students often no longer see it as necessary to engage themselves in the process of their learning: there is frequently a real lack of initiative displayed, and they would always rather email their lecturer for an answer to something about a deadline, say, than look on the VLE where it has been displayed before the start of the academic year. And woe betide someone who doesn't look at their emails after midnight, as you will often find a chasing reminder from the same student who emailed you at 1am, because you haven't responded by 4am.

There are always students who are a spot of joy - and they are the ones that keep us in the job year on year: sadly, though, they are becoming the exception rather than the rule in most cohorts.

Hefsi

With regards to the types of flats students rent-

When you're a student you pretty much HAVE to rent via a student landlord. It is so pricey. I'm sure your 2 bed flat is cheaper but students wouldn't actually be allowed to rent it.

I rented a grotty mouldy room about 15 minutes away from the University. It cost me £400 a month. I had five flatmates who were also paying £400 a month. If we could have spent that £2400 on a private let (not student) we would have been able to get a much nicer place. But no. You can't.

All put on campus accommodation is en-suite with flat screen TVs and wifi. Students pay £90pw. There has been a number of purpose-built high-rise student flats by the private sector. Some of these are bought as buy-to-lets by investors and the owners of the buildings manage everything. These are about £450 per month per student. I'm in a very cheap city in NE Scotland.

I think you are being a little unfair. I work in a university but I am not a lecturer.

Well, how would you feel if a significant proportion of your job involved teaching situations which are reliant on sixteen people having read a text (which has been on the reading list they got in the summer before the start of the academic year, which is available cheaply secondhand and in multiple copies in the library), and regularly two thirds of them show up in a seminar in early February without having read it?

A seminar works via discussion, with the lecturer chairing and focussing discussion, not lecturing the group. It simply cannot function when the majority of those present have not read the text, but are, for some reason, bent on showing up with a pen and refill pad, to write down the 'right', essay-passing answer, which they confidently believe I am going to tell them. No eye contact. They are there to write things down, not to contribute. Over two hours. Do I attempt to conduct an Oxbridge-style tutorial with the few students who have actually done the reading, who occasionally become resentful because of undue pressure on them to contribute in seminars? Or do I come with a two-hour lecture written and prepared?

Or do I allow awkward silences after I've asked a question? How long for? And what do I do about the fact that these same students who have not done any of the reading can land me in disciplinary measures if they give negative feedback on my teaching, because they don't like seminars where I ask questions about the reading and a silence stretches out...?

Students working isn't a reason for poor attendance, effort or results. It's always been normal for students to work part time.

When I did my degree, it was part time, over 5 years instead of 3, and it was still 10 hours contact time a week (one long day 9 am until 8 pm with an hour for lunch). In addition to that I worked 30 hours a week in my full time job.

Even with 15 hours contact time a week for a full time student, there is no reason why they can't work 2 or 3 shifts a week and still have time for studying and a social life.

Part of the problem is that I often respond to emails on a weekend or evening. I should stop

Yes, please stop! I know how it is: you're checking emails on a Saturday night, or in a conversation with a colleague about a research paper, and a student note pops up. It feels easier to answer then & there, before it gets buried in the next 50 emails which you'll receive before 9am Monday.

I've been asked by my HoD not to send that email until Monday office hours, but answer it, then save the answer to my drafts file, then send it Monday. Until we all start doing this, students will not learn what is reasonable.

I really worry about how the snowflake-style students will fare in working-for-money world, when some of them have so many difficulties about boundaries and respect in the working-for-love world, in which we tutors have to put up with their behaviour.

I rarely encounter the type of parent mentioned above - which possibly explains why most of our students know how to take responsibility for themselves. They are more likely to say 'Dear Dr. X, My son can be lazy and disorganised, please let me know if he isn't attending and I will kick him up the arse'

Have a look at some (only some) of the parents posting in the Higher Education topic on MN. You'll see the kind of thing that some of us deal with quite regularly!

"Part of the problem is that I often respond to emails on a weekend or evening. I should stop"

I think that there would be a market for an email programme that sends an email at particular time and on a particular day. Sometimes it does seem just less work to answer a student email there and then. Outlook does have the facility to set up folders where emails from particular people can be directed. You could have a student folder that is looked at on Monday morning.

When I did my humble non graduate part time IT support job I used to get a lot of emails and answer them straight away. I found that the job intruded into my weekend and stopped being a part time job. Worse of all the teachers that I supported came to expect an instantous reply even though I was only employed 3 days a week. Managing your clients/ students expectations is important to keep a sensible work life balance.

My DH is lectures in a technical subject - he gone in very dejected as he's finished marking and he's so disappointed as so many have done bare minimum - you can see point where they stopped spoon feeding.

They've introduced sign in sheets - like mine course 20 years ago had probably for similar reasons - and they can see a large number aren't turning up to lectures and tutorials.

He gets last minute e-mails with problems about course work they should have spent months working on and worked through immediately.

The management isn't helpful either - they have to get a high percentage through in first year as the first year attrition rates are an important data point somewhere - but now they have also got target for each course in year 2 and it requires a explanation when they go below it.

They come under pressure to put on extra support which comes out of their time and research time - but it's the worried well who turn up who don't need them but it's the ones who demand such things are always one not turning up to normal ones.

I don't understand it - paying those kind of fees I'd be at everything in fact I was 20 years ago and I got a tiny grant towards my keep.

I think I'm a bit with velour on this.

It is bloody frustrating when students don't do the reading, en masse, or don't show up to lectures. But for me it's equally depressing when someone on this thread talks about reading books she enjoyed and feminist writings as 'the bare minimum' to get through the degree - come on, give yourself some credit!

An awful lot of my students talk this way (and I'm sure students always did). Sometimes it's bravado ('look at me, I do no work, I'm just naturally brilliant/too cool for this'). But sometimes they genuinely seem not to have faith in themselves, and they play down what they've done. I wonder, is this a consequence of constantly being told they're a lazy generation that expects things handed to them?

I can remember being a student who did not always do the reading.

That said, my colleague has a strategy which I'm planning to put into use next time this happens to me - he sits back, and says 'For the first fifteen minutes, you will talk and I will listen and observe. I will not intervene in any way.' And he waits. And they have to talk.

I would be terrified of silence, but I've seen him do it and it worked - and made very obvious who hadn't prepared.

Oh, and I will say, I have some really fantastic students who read shitloads. So, they do exist.

I remember students being lazy and not preparing for tutorials back in the 90s.

Difference now is that there seems to more of a 'blame the lecturer' attitude.

I think YABU actually. It's not your students' job to check that the online facilities are working properly. That would be your job. I don't think it has anything to do with whether they are paying for their degrees or not, of course they're entitled to expect that texts that they're told will be uploaded are actually uploaded.

It's up to them to manage their time - if they want to prepare at the last minute or not at all then so be it. You need to judge them on their output and their performance. Not how you think they ought to be acting or what you presume that they've read or done. If the presentations are shit, give them a shit mark. Ditto written assignments and exams. If they're not shit, it doesn't matter that they read stuff at the last minute or not at all.

I've taught in a university (in the US). I don't believe in grade inflation, and I'm a harsh marker. But I don't buy into the idea that students owe the teacher anything in terms of their output - if they want to not prepare for classes and then just cram it all for the exams, then that's their prerogative. If they want to scrape through their degree doing the bare minimum then that's they're choice (and it might be a valid choice for people who are at uni to make connections in their career and are better off spending time eg editing the student newspaper than getting a first). Not because they're paying, but because the entire uni system is for their benefit, whether they're paying or not.

Also - just re-read the OP - but you've set them 40-50 pp of reading. Surely the most natural thing is to do this the night before the discussion? There'd be no point doing it a week in an advance, as you'd forget it. In this case, preparing at the last minute is not even irresponsible.

Why isn't it the students' job?

I can see that if they'd been told resources will always be there, they'd have a right to feel badly treated - but the OP warned them that the resource isn't reliable. Unfortunately, this is how life sometimes is! As an academic, sometimes I feel really fed up because my university has decided to withdraw subscription to this or that journal that I really need - but I know that it happens and I deal with it. I'm fairly sure most of the working world operates on the basis that sometimes, you're dealing with a less-than-perfect resource.

So why should students be exempt from dealing with that sort of issue?

Surely the most natural thing is to do this the night before the discussion? There'd be no point doing it a week in an advance, as you'd forget it. In this case, preparing at the last minute is not even irresponsible.

Really I'd have read it few days before - so had a chance to think/look anything up then do a quick re-though the night before I'd have thought that was a standard approach - maybe it's a personal thing?

At DH uni - a lot of the on-line stuff isn't anything directly to do with the lectures but the IT department - same with admin stuff - doesn't mean DH and his fellow lectures won't chase things up though but would need to be informed there were problems to do so then fight with relevant department. So would depend on OP Uni set up really.

Though universities I've studied with all admin and finding resource was on us students and you'd probably get sign posted to relevant places then it was up to you.

Because academia is supposed to be a community, which everyone contributes to. History tutorials should be everyone pitching in, sharing their ideas and creating new ideas. It's their responsibility to locate the reading. I make it super-easy for them by copying or digitising everything. If they've been warned of a potential problem and what to do, they should deal with it.

In my experience of teaching in US and UK universities, US universities spoon-feed students far more than in the UK. They give out A's by the dozen. They also hand out extra credits for all kinds of tasks. Such things would not pass the quality assurance people here.

Well - it's the course leader's job because they're the one getting paid for it! And the university has decided for better or worse that when you teach a course you're also expected to upload materials. It's no more or less a part of the job than rocking up to teach. If you're a lecturer on a course where you're supposed to upload pdfs of course readings and you know the online system is faulty, then you need to log on and make sure that the upload has succeeded.

It isn't the students' job to make sure texts were uploaded, because they probably don't have any way of uploading the texts, and they don't have any duty of care to the other students.

But in this case, the students are the ones having to deal with the issue - if they can't get physical sight of a book - which is presumably impossible for an entire class. even if the text is on 24hr loan, hence the need to upload a pdf - and it's not online then they can't read it. I don't see how that can be construed as the students' own fault.

Some simple skills that are expected of history studenrs are and effective note-taking and being able to retain and recall information. So they should be able to prepare days in advance

yet cant do Maths and English to an acceptable standard.

Cough, Beta !

In my experience of teaching in US and UK universities, US universities spoon-feed students far more than in the UK. They give out A's by the dozen. They also hand out extra credits for all kinds of tasks. Such things would not pass the quality assurance people here

This is in general true (though I taught at a school where they had grade quotas to combat grade inflation so things aren't all doom and gloom in the US!), but not really the point. If part of the lecturer's job is uploading the items on the reading list then it's reasonable to expect the lecturer to do this. And uploading text has become a thing not because students are too lazy to go to the library but because the uni can't/won't shell out for enough copies of the course books for there to be enough physical copies for an entire class to read.

My son is somewhat hacked off because lots of the other students in the seminars for his History degree at an extremely highly rated university do not utter a word. He feels he contributes ideas and knowledge and receives nothing back.