To ask if, given the opportunity, you would opt to have your child(ren) educated from 3-18 through the medium of another language that neither you, DP or wider family speak?

[whynogutfeeling]

I'm struggling with a decision re: Welsh medium education here in Wales at the moment. Neither DP or I, or our families, speak Welsh.

So many supporters of Welsh medium education are encouraging us to go for it and cite many advantages that such an education offers, but they are a) either Welsh speakers themselves b) have partners who are Welsh speakers if they are not or c) are totally on-board with and committed to 'project Welsh language' and / or are learning Welsh as adults.

I find myself wondering if they, if they had the option, would choose to send their child(ren) to a Mandarin / German / Spanish medium school if they had the option and also whether imagining such a scenario can help them understand our concerns?

Am I a bad parent for not choosing education through the medium of another language (in this case Welsh) for my child, when I have the option? Will I limit their opportunities by not taking the option up?

that link isn't letting me read it thenewstatesman can you let me know what page number or paste the passage? i'd be interested in reading it.

It's p 108 of Children, Place and Identity: Nation and Locality in Middle Childhood.

I wouldn't send my child to the Welsh school, I want to be able to help them with their homework, and I'm worried it could hinder them (mainly because there is a strong history of dyslexia in my family, and I'd rather it stays uncomplicated for them).

That's interesting, I would opt for Welsh or Spanish with a dyslexic child because they are both phonetic.

there are very very few exclusive Welsh speakers left these days
True, but in Argentina they are Welsh/Spanish bilingual

OP It doesn't have to be from 3-18 does it? You could change schools.

I have no experience myself but the students I taught on England but on the Welsh border seemed to think younger siblings being bilingual was a good thing, they had gone to secondary in Wales, had to learn Welsh but if they had younger siblings in a bilingual school they used to get the younger ones to help with homework.

Parents of WM schools are middle class [confused are you fucking kidding me?! Haha

No, no they are not, my parents were working class English speakers. I am know working class my DP is a private in the military, we are sending DS to WM school, needless to say all my friends who have had children and sent them to WM schools are working class.

The residents of the Welsh valleys are predominately working class. The capital may be middle class but I'd hazard a guess that when you look at WM schools throughout Wales, it's predominately working class in small rural village WM schools

My son is severely dyslexic. His welsh written work is ahead of his English because its far more phonetically based. It helps his speech and language issues because he has two words for things.

WM educated children also are offered languages other than welsh! My children do french, spanish and mandarin. even in primary our children are learning mandarin phrases. the only difference is their work books are translated from mandarin to welsh.

I'm not saying WM kids are not offered different languages, just that WM is not the only way to make your child learn languages. No argument from me, it's just personal choice.

Interesting point re middle classness. DD's WM school is in the southern valleys and was built for a big council housing estate. Over the years the catchment has grown (it's still a small school comparatively) to include new build estates etc. If you consider free school meals an indicator, then this says a lot. WM school 30%.

The

I wouldn't use school meals as a indicator. If blithe parents are on just above nmw jobs they wouldn't be entitled but they are still "working class"

I think its important to note that abject poverty does not equate to class. I know more working class people who have more money in their pockets than their middle class counterparts due to lifestyle choices but there career paths and overall status makes them middle class, so whilst the working class aren't fretting about filling the lunchbox 2 days before pay day, the others are.

I can't view those pages for some reason statesman. I may buy the book though, it looks interesting!

I think that in Welsh medium schools there is an understanding that you will have to be able to communicate in English as well as Welsh once you leave school so I don't think that they will learn Welsh to the detriment of English as has been suggested by some poster. They will be able to speak in both languages. While those who live outside Wales might think Welsh is a minority language and not that useful, as you know, it is certainly is very useful to those who live in Wales. It may not effect their global employment opportunities but if they want to live in Wales their opportunities will be more limited if they are not bilingual.

DH went to a Welsh medium school and Welsh is definitely his first language. However, he also went to an English university for his degree and PhD and had no problems at all. His written English is as good or better than the majority of English people.

I can understand your concerns regarding not being able to help them with their school work. In reality though I think these issues only apply when they are very young and learning to read/write. If you have some Welsh lessons now, this shouldn't be a problem.

This is tricky. I think there would be advantages to your dc being immersed in Welsh if they're likely to remain there fir their whole childhood. Socially and employment wise they may miss out on aspects of living in Wales otherwise. But I agree it'd be a massive issue for me not being able to understand my dc's homework, though at least the teachers will be able to communicate with you. I also have found my dd has taken a surprising amount of settling into reception and I think I might not have had the stomach to just leave her to struggle in a totally unfamiliar language at this age of there was a realistic alternative. Could they go to English school and have Welsh lessons outside school? Or a Welsh speaking nanny or something? Realise these are costly options

whyno I'm guessing you're in the 'Diff?

I sent my dd to Welsh school for mainly cultural reasons. I'm a Welsh speaker, but didn't go to a Welsh school myself. I felt I missed out on a lot because of that.

Many of my friends' dcs go to the Welsh school. Some of these parents are Welsh-speaking; some not. From what I've observed, the dcs with no Welsh at home haven't struggled academically at all. Admittedly that's a fairly small sample. However, I DO know, anecdotally via dd, that there are many children who do not speak Welsh when teachers ate not looking, and certainly don't speak Welsh outside school (dd does).

How this is going to impact on their attainment, I've no idea, but it would be interesting to find out if there is any evidence to support the notion that some kids just don't thrive in Welsh education.

It's true, too, that there seems to be a lot of support for kids to develop their language in a social environment; these activities do not seem to be available to non-Welsh speaking children.

For those parents wishing to support their dcs by learning Welsh, I think it would need a massive amount of time, energy and commitment. Many parents learn Welsh, but most do not get beyond the basics. I take my hat off to any Welsh learner who becomes proficient, particularly if they are not from Wales.

In general terms, I don't think that not being a fluent Welsh speaker affects employment in Wales. I have never had any trouble and my kids will most likely do a GCSE in Welsh so I'm not worried about them. I am in the South East and I don't know of a single person even in the widest of our circle that speaks Welsh as a first language. If we were in North or West Wales I would think differently as it's more widely spoken there.

OP- I suspect from your description that you're in a similar area of Cardiff to me. My 3 children go to WM schools and it's been the best thing we did. They are all fluent in both Engligh and Welsh and DS ( year 6) is now progressing well with French which they do weekly. The homework all comes home in both languages ( most kids are from non Welsh speaking homes). The opportunities they get in the WM schools are fantastic in addition to the academic outcomes.Take a look at the colour categorisation of Welsh schools recently published to see the key stage 2 outcomes!

OP your facing the same dilemma/choice as the many thousands of parents who emigrate or asylum seek in other countries. If you want your children to have equality in Wales then let them learn Welsh. Consider learning the langauage yourself just as speakers of other languages are encouraged to learn English/French/German etc.

I come from an English-only speaking family and went to WM schools from 3-18. I then went on to study English Lit at university to MA level. I never felt that Welsh was a detriment to my education; if anything, it was a help as the class sizes in my school were so small. Thinking of my circle of friends from school, many had parents who only spoke English. Amongst them now are a few doctors, academics (in physics and chemistry), teachers, a legal secretary and a solicitor. I'm a civil servant and have become an unofficial translator for my department I was even asked to translate a letter addressed to the Home Secretary once, the reply to which had to be in Welsh. So it hasn't been a huge factor in my work but it has added a bit of diversity and given me a good competency example for future job applications. I previously worked briefly for S4C, where Welsh was obviously a big factor in getting the job.

My parents were able to help me with homework when I was younger (I can't remember what they did exactly but I think they had translations of what the work was). By the time I went to comprehensive I was fluent anyway so it wasn't a problem. If I needed help I would just translate what the work was and my dad would help me. I believe there are apps for your mobile/tablet that can help with homework now, but I don't know how good they are.

Obviously you will have to take your own child's academic levels in to account and if you think it will be a huge hindrance to them, then make the decision based on what will suit. I can't comment on how being bilingual may help with conditions such as dyslexia as I have no experience with that, but it's interesting to read the comments here. I do believe that growing up bilingual can only help with brain development, regardless of the language spoken. I'm generally rubbish at picking languages up so am very grateful to be able to speak a second one, it brings me great pleasure. I can never understand why a child's English would suffer as a result of having a WM (or any other language) education; if a child is struggling, surely it's up to the parent to pick up on it and help them overcome that?

I come from the valleys and work in Cardiff now, btw, so saying that Welsh will only help with jobs in north Wales is not entirely true

Oh yes, Cardiff has a lot of jobs that require Welsh, but I've always got by without it and worked in Cardiff for years. There were some jobs I couldn't apply for because I didn't have Welsh, but I have always manged to get work very easily.

I just don't think that not going to a WM school holds children back employment wise. It's not my experience at all. Unless they want to work at S4C or Clwb Ifor Bach. Or be on Pobol y Cwm.

If you want your children to have equality in Wales then let them learn Welsh

They will learn Welsh in an EM school anyway. I really don't think a child not fluent in Welsh will be held back in anyway. Just my experience, but I have lived here for 45 years in the South East.

I wasn't trying to say you can't get jobs here without Welsh, it's just another string to your bow, is all

I don't think that not having a WM education holds children back st all, I wasn't educated in welsh and my classmates and I hold a variety of good jobs without it, so clearly its not a necessity for doing well. But its equally true to say that in lots of fields its definitely something that helps. Teaching as an example, lots of my friends teach and when they graduated they all said finding permanent work would have happened much sooner if they could speak welsh.

Ha Chief said what I was,getting at in about 4 million less words

Teaching as an example, lots of my friends teach and when they graduated they all said finding permanent work would have happened much sooner if they could speak welsh.

Am I living in a different Wales? I have loads of teacher friends who got jobs in Wales easily.

I struggled to learn Welsh as a second language in my teens, partly because English was so entrenched I was translating everything rather than learning the language fresh, and partly because there was no Welsh at home. I don't care whether DD stays in Wales or moves to the moon, early immersion is by far the simplest way to learn Welsh. She'll be part of the decision making when it comes to secondary school. If she moves to English medium, she'll have the foundation of Welsh that can X always be built on rather than losing most of it like I have.