To ask if, given the opportunity, you would opt to have your child(ren) educated from 3-18 through the medium of another language that neither you, DP or wider family speak?

[whynogutfeeling]

I'm struggling with a decision re: Welsh medium education here in Wales at the moment. Neither DP or I, or our families, speak Welsh.

So many supporters of Welsh medium education are encouraging us to go for it and cite many advantages that such an education offers, but they are a) either Welsh speakers themselves b) have partners who are Welsh speakers if they are not or c) are totally on-board with and committed to 'project Welsh language' and / or are learning Welsh as adults.

I find myself wondering if they, if they had the option, would choose to send their child(ren) to a Mandarin / German / Spanish medium school if they had the option and also whether imagining such a scenario can help them understand our concerns?

Am I a bad parent for not choosing education through the medium of another language (in this case Welsh) for my child, when I have the option? Will I limit their opportunities by not taking the option up?

Welsh is a weird one because, in practical terms, it's really helpful for a good number of jobs inside the country and pretty much irrelevant outside. So it's not really comparable to the ones you list. In answer to the specific question, no to Mandarin. Too different, despite the usefulness. I'd think about Spanish, as I did it at school and it all comes back when I visit, and a couple of other family members also speak reasonable Spanish. So we might be able to help more. And it would be useful. German, not sure. Would give it some serious thought though.

You don't seem to have particularly strong views about the desirability or otherwise of Welsh language schooling in itself, it sounds like your decision will be a practical one. I feel the same. I'd probably consider the following:

• what area of Wales I'm in, since Welsh is spoken a lot more in some areas than others. I suspect it would be much more useful in Anglesey/Ynys Mon than Cardiff.

• quality of local school provision. If one medium is much better than the other, I'd lean towards that one. But you say they are both very good.

• likelihood of family's future being in Wales. Since Welsh medium education isn't really available elsewhere, that means committing to being in the country for the next 15 years doesn't it? I imagine it would be quite disruptive to switch medium.

• whether I felt I could commit to learning any myself, as I can see that I might well want to. And school's provision for supporting parents who don't speak the language fluently: I assume they would be ok speaking to me in English at parents evening?

On balance, in your shoes I probably wouldn't unless I felt there were particularly clear advantages.

I have friends in all kinds of different careers and within Wales the ability to speak welsh almost always puts you at an advantage in the job market.

Great what jobs would they be, as examples? I'm guessing that for most NHS front line and behind the scenes jobs Welsh wouldn't be an advantage unless you were based somewhere like Gwynedd, as opposed to Cardiff. Likewise teaching, education administration and academia, unless you're teaching / working in a Welsh medium setting. Media, yes, for S4C and Radio Cymru maybe, but not the rest? And in private businesses, which sectors is Welsh useful in? The public sector varies a lot it seems (I'm thinking LA administration and Welsh Government). I mean, only one of the four main political party leaders in Wales speaks Welsh fluently (Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru is a learner of course!).

gutfeeling, round here you wouldn't have a sniff of a job in education, NHS or employed by the council without fluent Welsh. Most businesses would prefer it, some insist on it. Any job where you're working with the public really.

Sorry, I've not read the whole thread but wanted to reply. We live near Swansea and chose to send our children to a Welsh primary school. My husband has vague memories of learning Welsh as a second language at school, but only remembers a few words. I have chosen to do an evening class, but am pretty rubbish. However, can have a very superficial conversation by this point (3years in!).

Our children struggled a bit at first, were quite naughty and disruptive in the first term, despite being well behaved at home. This settled after around January of their reception year. They were pretty fluent in spoken Welsh after about6 months.

I can read with them at home, let's face it the books are very simple so even my Welsh can cope with them, but I struggle with letters home, etc. However everything coming home is bilingual. Homework is pretty straight forward at this stage, but will probably get harder.

My feeling is that unless they are doing really well and are independent in school work by age 11 we will probably send them to English medium secondary school, as I think I won't be able to help them enough otherwise.

However, I think this is a good compromise. They learn Welsh, which is really useful for getting a job in Wales (although not necessarily needed to do a job, it ticks the right boxes) and may help with brain development, etc.

One snag I think is that we couldn't move them now. If they went to English primary now they would be very behind as they don't do much English medium stuff at school. However, this will even out by the end of primary school. If you start at Welsh school you have to follow it through til the end of primary in order not to disadvantage them.

Happy to share any experiences, but might be disappearing til later this evening .

greatfuckability Thanks for the clarification - I thought you meant Welsh-speakers were more likely to get student housing than others.

As for wanting to learn Welsh: fine. As a choice. But it should not be compulsory. It's not like learning English - the main language of all the constituent parts of the U.K. - or maths or a science. If a child prefers history or German that choice should be open. If it's so good to learn why does it need the stick instead of the carrot?

I wouldn't for Welsh, sorry!
This is obviously completely anecdotal but a friend of mine was educated in Welsh but her parents/family don't speak it. Her written English suffered terribly as a result. She doesn't even live in Wales so it's a useless skill for her to have now.

I don't think I would be into it. Our kids are bilingual so i'm not against it in principle but

• your kids haven't been hearing it since birth presumably so they have a bit of a challenge ahead (not that it's insurmountable but it does make it harder)
• there are very very few exclusive Welsh speakers left these days so it's not as big an integration issue as if you were in France or Germany, say
• school starts in Wales at 4, same as England? So they've only got the year between starting nursery and going into formal education.

I don't know. If you have a very able kid with no issues with their native language it would probably be OK - they do say there are lots of advantages to being bilingual in terms of what your brain can do.

whynot customer facing roles, teaching, police service, social work, physiotherapy to name a few. I'm in the Swansea area so not a place you'd necessarily think of as very welsh but people who can speak the language have more options.

Andrewofgg welsh is taught to year 11, but its not compulsory to choose it at gcse level, so it doesn't preclude people from choosing other subjects if they prefer to at gcse level.
To address why welsh is protected the way it is, you'd have to look at the history of why it was almost eradicated in the first place. It didn't die a natural death and the fact its survived at all is testament to how strongly people feel about preserving it. I learned with my children. It can be done.

toomuch my children picked up welsh within weeks of starting nursery. Were fairly fluent in a few months. Nursery age children pick languages up incredibly quickly.

DSD goes to a Welsh primary. Her mum doesn't speak Welsh, DP does but tbh she's never asked him for help with homework (she's 6). He will occasionally speak Welsh to her but most of the time (if I'm around especially) they speak English.

DP was schooled in Welsh. He didn't go to uni by choice, but has a very good level of education.

I know two other families who have chosen to school their children in Welsh; one set of parents don't speak any Welsh, their eldest is 10 and they've never had problems with homework as their son has been able to explain in English to them. The second family, the dad is learning Welsh in evening classes.

I used to work for Swansea council and being able to speak Welsh was considered a huge advantage - we were made to answer the phone in Welsh and English, even if you couldn't continue the conversation in Welsh. I work for another employer now where the ability to speak Welsh is again considered to be advantageous.

Welsh is not dying - it's having a resurgence due in part to adults learning in evening classes and more children being educated in welsh.

Not read the thread but our 5 year old is at Welsh medium primary school. I attended English medium schools but learned Welsh (to A level) as a second language then didn't use it for about 16 years despite workin in the Welsh public sector. It was hellish and I never achieved fluency. My Welsh is coming back as DD learns.

Husband is from the north of England and is committed to learning Welsh. That said there are plenty of children at the school whose parents speak no Welsh and it's not a problem.

There was no other option than WM primary for us - the bilingualism is the only reason DD is at school at all to be honest! I have some concerns about the local Welsh medium secondary, but that's in terms of culture and quality of teaching (not all of the best teachers speak Welsh ) not language.

Did you see the Lucy Owen programme on TV 2 weeks ago? There are positives in terms of children learning through Welsh despite having English speaking parents. Well worth a watch (although her concerns were slightly different to mine).

DD LOVES speaking Welsh, and it's amazing how the absorption method works. She doesn't struggle at all. The pastoral care is superb too.

Whereabouts are you?

likelihood of family's future being in Wales. Since Welsh medium education isn't really available elsewhere, that means committing to being in the country for the next 15 years doesn't it? I imagine it would be quite disruptive to switch medium.

Not at all if going from Welsh to English. Certainly if going from English to Welsh.

We didn't go to Welsh school because our (English) parents didn't think they'd stay on Wales. They've been here over 40 years and have no plans to leave now.

Thank you all for your comments. It really is helping me think this through.

Great that's interesting, I guess even if it's an advantage as regards jobs rather than a requirement, it's something.

Disappointed yes I watched that eagerly! But sadly it didn't help me much as Lucy Owen has a Welsh speaking husband so in her shoes I wouldn't hesitate to do Welsh medium. The views of the other families featured were interesting though and I thought it was quite balanced overall.

Toomuch the immersion style of Welsh medium primary is meant to make up for a slightly later start that kids from non-Welsh speaking homes get with the language.

Jizzy we only moved (back) here a few years ago so don't anticipate a move outside of Wales and I can't think of anything that would come up to necessitate one, though you never know... I guess if we chose Welsh medium we'd have to cross that bridge in the unlikely event we came to it i.e. moving away from Wales while still at Welsh medium primary.

creampie yes, very interested to hear more about your experiences. My non-Welsh husband is of the same view as you i.e. IF we go with Welsh medium primary then we take stock of how well they're doing before applying for secondary and if needs be, send them to English medium (and take the flak they'd give us for it!). He doesn't see an issue with this as he moved areas around that age himself so had to settle into secondary school knowing only one or two other kids from his old school, whereas I went with a sizeable number of kids from my primary to my secondary (and stayed friends with them.) I guess kids who go to religious schools might have a similar experience transferring to secondary though? I know my cousin went to CoE school in their small town but for CoE secondary they had to travel half an hour by bus to reach their nearest option and most of the kids from their primary were instead sent to the more local, non-CoE secondary.

I so wish I had a crystal ball!
English medium feels the safest but I fear it would mean my child missing out on something they would benefit from educationally and developmentally and possibly career-wise too. Welsh feels like a gamble and I think I'd always be kicking myself that I'd made things even harder than they need to be for them if they turn out to struggle educationally.

A couple of my.relatives are really.into Irish language and ensuring it is preserved etc. and send their kids to Gaelscoils. Im just like.......why? It isn't like Irish is even spoken widely in Ireland let alone outside of it. And any jobs where you need Irish (lawyer, teacher) are easily accessible with an Irish language qualification (probably no more than leaving cert level?). I just don't get why anyone would have their child's primary learning language, (so presumably the language they largely learn to read and write in) a language that hardly anyone speaks.

By all means preserve the language, go to extra classes, take an interest, but in answer to your question - no way!

I think the point there is that one of the major advantages of Welsh medium education, significant employment advantages in Wales, near enough disappears outside the country. So for me, it would be considerably more persuasive if I was pretty sure we were staying than it would be otherwise.

I take your point about switching disappointedone as I'm sure you're better qualified to comment on that than me. But for a family who aren't particularly culturally commited to learning Welsh, which OP doesn't seem to be, and have access to excellent schools in both mediums, unless you're clear you'll be staying the only real lasting advantages are those of bilingualism. Which could potentially be replicated by learning to speak a more useful language. So of course it's something for OP to think about.

I knew this was going to be about Welsh when I read the title.
My Dd may well be going to the local Welsh Medium high school in sept. In fact she spent this morning in said school doing starting the integration program.
She's been learning in a village school since Sept 13 and spent a term doing an intensive program in a nearby village school.
There is no way would have entertained her going to Welsh High school if it wasn't for the fact she seems to have a talent for languages. She is just about at level 5 already and uses Welsh most of the day at school, it hasn't affected her other subjects she at or above level for everything else.
I'm probably outed if anyone from the village reads this one

Jizzy The immersion approach means young children pick up Welsh seamlessly. It's a far less complex language than English in terms of phonics etc. DD can read on both languages with ease (she's never been taught to read in English). Not easy to achieve the same level of immersion in any other language here - I'm not sure French or German (or other) language lessons once a week would cut it, really.

My parents were both in education. Talked about this with my dad last week - of the 11 GCSEs I took, 9 were taught by supply teachers for the majority of year 9 and 10. That was in a church of Wales school. There are no guarantees of the quality of teaching in any school!

jizzy (love that name by the way!) but even if the only advantages are those of bilingualism, those are fantastic advantages to have. and there aren't any other languages on offer in the same way in wales, so even from that point of view its worth it imo.

It may not be legally compulsory to take GCSE Welsh but some English-medium schools insist on it.

One of my colleagues is Irish; did secondary school and university and qualified as a solicitor there. Normally that requires passing exams in Irish; but because she had been in England from small childhood until she was 12 or 13 she was exempted from that. She has told me that she was the object of envy from her contemporaries who had as they saw it to waste their time learning a useless language.

In the end minority languages survive or don't on their strengths, not by compulsion. The fact that in earlier times there were attempts to misuse the schools to eradicate Welsh is no excuse for misusing them to prop it up now.

I am Irish and planning on sending my children to an all Irish speaking school. But then I do speak the language (English at home, but I am fluent in Irish) so it's not the same situation.
Their English won't be affected by it so why shouldn't I send them to a school I know will develop the second language?

Sure, I'm not saying there aren't advantages to bilingualism greatfuckability. I don't think people can assume there aren't any other languages on offer to OP though, and particularly not to present is as Ysgol or French and German once a week. We don't know whether OP would consider or have access to things like nanny speaking Spanish, homeschooling programmes, spending a lot of time with family who speak Polish at home etc, if she particularly wanted bilingualism. Personally, I am fluent in road sign Welsh thanks to frequent holidays immersion!

Re quality of education, it was just that OP said both were excellent locally. If one was much better than the other, I might make my choice based on that alone if we were pretty sure we weren't moving. Fully accept that there will be crap teaching and problem schools in both mediums, but that's not a concern here based on what OP says.

I think as well OP I'd think carefully about the local culture wrt Welsh. The necessity can vary according to area. I've a friend who's not Welsh but lived there a few years as an adult, speaks it ok and understands most spoken Welsh, but can't write it. She has a public sector professional role, lives close to two counties. One of which you need Welsh for her profession, one you don't. She was able to find a good job no problem, but fluent Welsh would have given her twice the options. If you're in an area where local authorities require Welsh, that would be more of an incentive to make sure the kids speak it than one where they don't. PM me if you want to know the areas, I rather not out myself!

Jizzy I'm in Cardiff.... I get your point about how in some areas of Wales bilingualism is especially important work-wise. Cardiff has lots of the Welsh speaking opportunities yet equally you can exist with no problem here being monoglot Enlgish.... Would love my child to learn German - my learned second language - too in future. No plans for nannies or home schooling though!!! :)