World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

Id rather wear a hijab than stillettos

Lucky you to have the choice, Branleuse

I don't think the distinction between criticising an ideology, and criticising individuals' decisions to follow that ideology (or parts of that ideology), is as comfortably clear cut as you describe, OTheHuge. Unfortunately.

Eg I'm quite happy to criticise the individuals attacking abortion clinics for their decisions and actions, not just criticise the existence of such beliefs.

But I'm criticising them because I think this set of decisions and beliefs are harmful, not because they're being presented under the label "Christianity".

Pausing - I think those people who are critical of headscarves and women having to cover up in general aren't critical of it because Islam, but because of the message it sends about how women are obliged to take responsibility for men's inability to control themselves sexually.

I certainly hope so. I was just extending your example, not using it to contrast to this thread.

Re-reading, that would have been much clearer losing the "But" in the last para.

I was contrasting it in my head with the threads that go tits up very fast, where people leap for the label and then either hear-no-ill or hear-only-ill, according to their feelings about the label.

This isn't a knee jerk "Islam is shit" thread. If anything the responses saying it is are far more knee jerk. There are many reasons not to want to celebrate the hijab, and they have been discussed mostly thoughtfully in some depth.

Removing the pubic hair, whether by plucking
PLUCKING! Get those tweezers AWAY from my fanny.
Oh my... no words

I dont know why high heels get such a bashing.

I have not worn them for years I am currently too heavy so they would hurt too much.

However I briefly lost some weight last year and wore wedges for the first time in years, the pleasure I got I loved them!

I cant wait to be able to wear heels again! I am also short and flat footed so do look very down at heel in flats, which I also love.

Really struggle to see any correlation between a head scarf to supposedly stop leering men who cant control themselves attacking you - and a high heel?

but because of the message it sends about how women are obliged to take responsibility for men's inability to control themselves sexually

Yes

I think those people who are critical of headscarves and women having to cover up in general aren't critical of it because Islam, but because of the message it sends about how women are obliged to take responsibility for men's inability to control themselves sexually

I'm still not understanding this argument. Are you saying that you're not criticising Islam or that Islam shouldn't be criticised, just the message being sent out ?

It's Islam (and not just Islamism) that is mandating this veiling, so indirectly you are criticising Islam anyway.

To my mind both the ideology that underpins it and the minions who voluntarily endorse it by adhering to and defending it's discriminatory rules should be criticised.

This is an interesting reply (and the comments) to the article Jus Linked from the Muslim woman asking other Muslim women to not cover.

muslimmatters.org/2015/12/27/this-muslim-woman-asks-you-not-to-undermine-hijab/

I actually would be interested to wear hijab for a day or two, Niqab also in fact. I'd like to know what it actually felt like, how restrictive it actually is, the response I get from people in the street etc. How some Muslim women see the UK from behind their coverings. If there is a side to choosing to covering up that could be in some way empowering to women.

Someone asked why on earth you would wear one? And I think the hijab can be very pretty, some of the hijab wearing mums I know look so much more glamorous than the majority of the Jean and boot, messy hair (me) mums you see at school. I imagine it could cover manly hairnon a bad hair day and keep you warm in the cold as well.

Mia, what I'm trying to say is that I'm not critical of the hijab because it's a Muslim practice but because I think it oppresses women (and is also symbolic of much worse oppression). I'm not having a go at Muslims because they're Muslims (for about the 25th on these threads, I feel obliged to say that I have meant plenty of Muslims who I like), I'm having a go at the hijab because I'm a feminist and think veiling is deeply regressive.

I don't speak or read Arabic, so I am not in any position to say whether any of the horrendous things ISIS gets up to is 'true Islam' or not. They seem to think it is, plenty of other Muslims seem to disagree.

I think any religion is open to criticism, including my own.

Bambambini that article says exactly what I'm saying, which is is that hijab is mandatory as proscribed in the Quran / Hadiths etc.

The article, although pro-hijab, explains very well the Islamic requirement for wearing a head scarf. Islamist movements have been instrumental in pushing women to obey this command, but if you are a believing woman, there is no optional aspect about covering your hair if you want to obey God. You have a responsibility to do so to protect yourself and for the protection of the wider society (i.e. not leading men to stray), which is why others feel entitled to enforce it on individuals.

So I maintain that on this subject, there is no neat divide between Islam & Islamism.

I think being critical of Islam is different to being critical of Christianity

if you are critical of the koran then you are being critical of god's word

so even less conservative muslims I have not heard them say anything negative about the koran but I know many who do not live by the koran but will still consider themselves muslims some practising some not so much

If there is a side to choosing to covering up that could be in some way empowering to women.

I think you might be able to falsely rationalise and equivocate yourself into thinking that it could be. But you are indulging in tourism, basically, so would have no way of experiencing what it feels for someone who directly or indirectly has no choice. So it would be a bit of a pointless vanity exercise, really.

How does it feel? Awful, hot, distinguished from men (I couldn't properly hear the translator from Farsi (I was giving a talk in Iran) because of the stupid bit of cloth women are obliged to wear, awkward. It limits your side vision. It makes you behave in different ways. Women kicked off most of these trappings in Victorian England or at least by the 1920s. Muslims will get there too but they need to keep working every day for feminist muslim movements or to encourage atheism so that women cease being curbed by these practices in ways men are not.

And yes what is so awful about middle eastern men that they cannot control their sex urges if they see an ankle which is not the case with men in the UK? I don't understand that issue. If these men cannot control themselves why don't the women take charge and say men are not allowed to leave the home unless in a burka and accompanied by a female relative. Why instead have things in a manner which curtails women? It is like saying all burglars are let out of jail and the rest of us stick in jail to be safe from them!

MistressMia controlling women's dress and behaviour certainly isn't limited to Islam, though. In the UK, Orthodox Jews impose very considerable limits on what females can wear and how they behave. In the US, the same is true of evangelical Christians. To a lesser extent this is also true of some brands of Catholicism (a raped El salvadorean 11 year old who can't get an abortion faces very real threats to her personal autonomy and possibly her life).

And? What's your point, Mistigri? I don't like the hijab, and I don't like raped El Salvadoreans 11 year olds not being able to get an abortion either. I will speak out about both things. Because I am a feminist.

It's Islam (and not just Islamism) that is mandating this veiling, so indirectly you are criticising Islam anyway.

I suppose so, in a way. But head covering is not uniquely Muslim, and it's also possible to be a Muslim woman without covering, isn't it?

My objection to women being pressured to cover their heads is the same whether it's done for Muslim reasons or at the behest of some other patriarchal faith. It's not women's responsibility to contain men's sexual urges and it's outrageous for any faith to claim that God says otherwise. In a modern context, this is most prominent in Islam; so in that sense yes, my objection is primarily to its practice in Islam. But not exclusively.

controlling women's dress and behaviour certainly isn't limited to Islam
I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it is because of Islam.

It's the hijab we're talking about in this thread, so what is the relevance of bringing in other faiths ?

I think being critical of Islam is different to being critical of Christianity
That's the point it shouldn't be.

if you are critical of the koran then you are being critical of god's word
And it's when you can point out Allah & Mohammed's utter hypocrisy, immorality and bullshit is when it all falls down. Not ISIS's, because of course they are 'not true muslims'.

To say this happens in other religions does not help to justify or change anything. Deal with the biggest one first. Except we won't, because everyone is too polite and wary of being branded racist.

Was the the Islamaphobia comment aimed at me or just the thread content?

Misti, I really don't see the hijab as being any way comparable to stilettos or high heels.

I asked my DH what he thought about World Hijab Day, and his response was 'Oh yeah, the lady who started it runs her own hijab business' and left it at that.

It doesn't bother me as an individual choice but it does seem far more popular and particularly for primary age children - I've always lived in big multi cultural cities and this is a new thing. I recall hearing the same said about Egypt - headscarves were a choice but are now worn by almost every woman.

I did read up that the covering is due to the woman's beauty being her hair (def don't agree personally) and a man's in his beard - so where are the beard covers?

The whole origin of the veil is mysoginistic control over women. The BBC series on women covered this and why it's so bad even today. Women who didn't wear it were putting themselves in a dodgy position. Choice and freedoms should come above all religious doctrine and many Muslim women thankfully do have this choice.

We are against all sexism.

So the comparison for world hijab day would be world FGM date or world rape of girls day or whatever. We should not be celebrating female oppression - that's the point.

because it is fucking racist to pick on the hijab or suddenly be all faux-concerned with the perceived oppression of muslim women, and think the answer to that is to take away their right to dress how the fuck they want. Ive never met a muslim woman who didnt want to wear the hijab. In fact its massively fashionable and there are all sorts of ways of wearing it and its symbolic and important for most muslim women.

Women being forced to wear Niquab or to walk 3 paces behind men - yeah I can see that thats problematic of course, but whats that got to do with Hijab?