To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

I still don't get what leads to a Faith school becoming oversubscribed in the first place? (or at least not due to being a faith school, I understand if it's a school in an affluent catchment with great facilities that just happens to be faith too).

The only thing I can think its that people assume there's some kind of link between religious faith and either affluence or involved/caring/educated parents? Which doesn't seem to be the case in my experience.

I live in a total mc bubble, I'll admit that. The only thing that brings me out of my bubble is my church. There are so many families at church struggling with anything and everything you can think of, and loads below the poverty line, in chaotic situations and having involvement from social services. There are several adopted and looked after children, many children and adults with a wide range of special needs and disabilities and lots who have no idea how best to navigate the education system for their children. And this is a church in a relatively affluent area. Presumably all these families would have priority for a faith school place over the secular, local families? Or is that not the case if we're a non denominational church?

Bertrand, I'll answer your questions.

1. No, I don't think it is particularly fair. However since I have promised to bring the DC up as catholics, I am very grateful that I can enlist a school to help me rather than going it alone. Catholics usually have to jump through fewer hoops than c of e; they usually have to just be baptised, rather than attend church regularly. Lots of catholics come from disadvantages backgrounds - Irish travellers, for eg.

I view it that catholic schools exist partly for the benefit of families like mine, so I should use them even if they aren't my nearest school, or they aren't as good as local non-faith schools. I know that theoretically of course I do have a choice of 33% more schools (is that the real figure?), but I would tend to view myself as having the choice of just that 33% of schools really - for example I wouldn't want to move somewhere that didn't have a catholic primary school.

2.I wouldn't want to apply for a non-faith school, especially for primary school, and I would be willing to travel further for a catholic school. I would almost certainly choose a requires improvement catholic school over an outstanding community school, though I am less sure about the choice between a requires improvement catholic, and an outstanding c of e. I would probably still go for the catholic one, but I would be slightly more torn (and probably wouldn't get into the c of e one anyway .

I will let the DC make their own decision when it comes to secondary.

We live about 50 yards from a 'very good' faith secondary school. Although several of our friends conveniently 'found God' just in time to meet the admissions criteria for their eldest children, DH and I were adamant that this was not something we would be comfortable doing, and we wanted our children to make up their own minds about their faith.
The school we ended up being allocated was a failing comprehensive on the other side of town, which we also felt uncomfortable about, for all the 'you have one chance to get your children's education right' reasons mentioned earlier.
We ended up changing our lifestyle (I went back to work, and DH took a different job) to afford to send our DC to an excellent independent school about a mile away. I know that we are fortunate to be in a position to make this choice - many cannot.
We are paying, through taxes, for school facilities on our doorstep which we are not able to use simply because we are not willing to be liars about our beliefs.
Meanwhile, we also have to leave the house 25 minutes earlier than necessary in order to get out of the road before all the faith school parents arrive (from up to 7 miles away...) and clog up all the traffic system.

Faith schools damage the local community in so many ways:

• creating religious 'ghettos' and bad feeling in the local community
• prevent children from attending 'local' schools and all the associated benefits: walking to school, having local friends,
• create extra pollution and traffic by encouraging people to travel longer distances to school

jenga I still wouldn't be happy with children having to join in with worship, but at least admissions would be fair. It's a step in the right direction.

Faith schools shouldn't have any part in the state education system. thats what I'm saying, OP.

If you want your child to receive a Catholic education, you and/or the church should pay.

As a practising Christian, I disagree with you too OP.
If you want your dc to be educated in a faith, then take them to the Church / synagogue / temple / gudwara / mosque / other place of religious teaching. It's not the place of the state to do this.
I think schools should teach about all faiths - including celebrating Diwali, Eid, Easter, Christmas, Passover, and whatever other festivities they would like to, and all those teaching should come with the pre-fix "This is a story from {insert faith}".... or..... "Many {insert faith} people believe...."
It's good to have some understanding of what your neighbours think and do.

^
But why should they ban faith Criteria and more importantly why would it be neccesary, as I assume that most parents who aren't Catholic, CofE etc wouldn't want their children to attend a faith school anyway, so what exactly are they missing out on by these schools having such "unfair" criteria?^

Well, my three nearest schools are all oversubscribed faith schools, with kids driven from ages away to attend.

The nearest community schools have tiny catchments because all the local kids who don't go to the 'right' church are competing for them.

Where is my kid meant to go to school, please? (Answer: a school a 45 minute drive away on the other side of the borough.) And why is his right to a local state-funded education less than a child of the 'right' faith?

OP, would you be happy if children whose parents practise religion were given a lower priority in non-faith schools than children whose parents don't?

So simply because I'm Catholic I jump through hoops, I'm organised and I'm overly concerned about my children's education? Well let me just say that I've jumped through no hoops. I am interested in my children's education but I expect that the majority of parents are, I fail see how this has helped me secure my child a place at a good school? Oh and I'm not organised either, I'm rather scatty and laid back when it comes to a lot of things, I'm not wealthy ether before someone accuses me of buying a big posh house right next door to the school in order to get my child in.

Surely the question should be: "What can we do to ensure that every child has access to an outstanding education?"

My local faith school is in the poorest area of town and is undersubscribed. Parents are trying to avoid it.
Another school, although faith-based, does not have faith criteria in its admissions policy. However, it is in a well off area and the catchments carefully exclude council estates.

So, even if we did ban faith schools, we'd still have essentially the same problem. It's that problem that needs fixing.

Sorry but I think its total BS that people would send their children to an underperforming faith school further away if they had an excellent non faith school on their doorstep. I would be quite staggered if that happened because it seems to be all about what's best for my kids even if that means being so hypocritical as to pretend to be religious, in many cases.

Serin, I'm glad you posted.

I would like others to see that that's 2 of us on this thread who disagree with the OP. Just because we are Catholic it doesn't follow that we agree with faith schools.

Some of us want our children to grow up well adjusted adults free to make up their own minds about everything after being exposed to as much as possible during their formative years.

"Another school, although faith-based, does not have faith criteria in its admissions policy" It's not a faith school, then.

So simply because I'm Catholic I jump through hoops, I'm organised and I'm overly concerned about my children's education? Well let me just say that I've jumped through no hoops.

Your congregation (and broader church) is statistically more middle class than the broader population. To get into faith-selecting schools, children must have parents who have it together enough to be baptised, attend church once a fortnight, or whatever other hoops the school chooses.

It says nothing about you as an individual. It's about the demographics of your church.

if they aren't Catholic, CofE etc then how are their kids missing out, why would they want their kids educated in a faith they do not believe in?

Their children are missing out because they have a smaller choice of schools to go to - why do you continue to ignore people who make that point, OP?

As for the business of wanting admission to the schools even if it means their children are educated in a faith they don't believe in, there are a number of responses to that. Probably the first and most important one is that they shouldn't be run by the church at all: there isn't a valid reason for the church being able to run state maintained schools, if they want to do that they should set up their own schools and fund them themselves. Essentially it's a matter of making more non-denominational school places available to all children.

Another response is that some people either might want their children educated in that faith but don't comply with the admissions criteria, or they might not object. There have been cases where oh-so-caring faith schools have refused places to children because their parent who fully subscribes to the relevant faith can't take them to church due to disability.

And finally, even in faith schools parents have a right to object to their children going to faith-based assemblies and RE lessons, so if they want to go for one of these schools that may be the way they avoid having the relevant faith thrust on them.

And this is a church in a relatively affluent area. Presumably all these families would have priority for a faith school place over the secular, local families? Or is that not the case if we're a non denominational church

Most schools limit to a particular sect (eg CofE or RC) and in popular areas even to a particular church.

I would like others to see that that's 2 of us on this thread who disagree with the OP. Just because we are Catholic it doesn't follow that we agree with faith schools.

There're more than two of you-backforgood and I are both practising Christians who disagree with the idea of faith schools.

Well I'll have to disagree with you there Jassy. Just because a family is Catholic and go on to have their children baptised doesn't neccesarily mean they are middle class. I'm most certainly from a working class background, as is my Dh yet both of our families (very large families) are all Catholic.

The primary school my youngest child attends isn't full of posh yummy mummy's driving range rovers it's full of hard working parents whether they work or stay at home (yes that is still work) and a lot of them either rent their homes because they can't afford to buy or they live in a short distance away in the next town which for some reason property is a lot cheaper. Their children are not advantaged in some way simply because they are Catholic and neither are my children so I resent the comment you made suggesting that faith schools are only for the wealthy or upper class.

So simply because I'm Catholic I jump through hoops, I'm organised and I'm overly concerned about my children's education? Well let me just say that I've jumped through no hoops. I am interested in my children's education but I expect that the majority of parents are, I fail see how this has helped me secure my child a place at a good school?

Are you really unable to see that what has helped your child to get a place at a good school is because the good school near you is Catholic and you fulfilled the criteria; whereas someone living next door to you who didn't fulfil those criteria may not be able to get that place, no matter how organised etc they are?

We have a very large Polish and Filipino community and as such the primary and secondary Catholic schools are so oversubscribed that both have been extended in recent years.

Even Catholics don't always get their first choice. My cousin removed her daughter from the Catholic primary as there was little chance of siblings being able to attend. You now have to regularly attend church and have a booklet stamped to prove attendance if you want to apply to the Catholic school.
I think we need more Catholic schools and non faith schools that are failing should be invested in to bring about improvement.

Yes it is, Bertrand: C of E Voluntary Aided with Diocese inspection.

I think we need more Catholic schools and non faith schools that are failing should be invested in to bring about improvement.

If you improved the non-faith schools surely that would lead to a drop in demand for catholic schools.

I think all faith schools and all grammar schools should be abolished in the state sector. I don't think there is a justifiable case for separating children along religious, partisan, ability or social class lines in taxpayer funded state education.

All abilities should be catered for across all mainstream schools (non-mainstream additional needs aside) and religious 'needs' should be catered for at home and in the family's chosen place of worship.

If you want a bespoke system that caters especially to the perceived religious or educational needs and preferences of your child then you can pay for it privately. Your child's given religion is not my problem or my priority as a tax payer.

I don't think I should (have a wider choice of school) to be honest but if the schools are there and I feel they suit my children better than any of the community schools then surely I can't be blamed for choosing to send them there.

It's not a matter of blaming you for choosing to send your children to the faith school. It's a matter of blaming a system under which churches are subsidised to put people like you in a privileged position because you have that wider choice.

And I suppose it is slightly a matter of blaming you for, apparently, refusing to recognise that such an inherently unfair system should not exist.

jenga do you have any idea how many schools have parents who aren't hard working and don't care about their kids education? Your children have a huge advantage over many.

I'll add a third voice LentilStew

I understand the historical reasons why the church was educating children and why the state can't just take them back. But if we're expecting the state to pay for the education now, it should be open to all children equally regardless of faith. The CofE seems to be recognising this by encouraging schools to restrict the number of places offered to faith applicants or by using non-faith criteria. It's about time the RC schools started to do the same.