To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

I haven't read the thread apart from the OP...

OP, yabu. Faith schools are outdated and have no place in modern society. All schools should secular. It's outrageous and deeply unfair that some children can be excluded from a school because of their parents faith.

If parents want their children to receive religious teachings they can do it out of school hours.

The fact that parents go to church simply so their DC can go to a particular school shows how stupid the current system is.

I think it's disgusting.

And if they're not offered a place at the one they choose?

Then if they ticked the "religion" box then they go to the failing Catholic school 17 miles away and if they ticked the "catchment" box then they go to the failing secular school half a mile away.

Remember there are several parents on here who are non religious and are finding their kids being sent to the failing Catholic school 17 miles away. And then the school get snarky when they don't want them being taught things that they don't agree with.

The problem at the moment is that people are using their religion to shove in front of the catchment child who lives next door to the school and then if that doesn't work out for them they suddenly run off to their own local school shouting "out of my way! I'm first! I'm catchment! I want a local school!"

Why do they get to be first twice when the non religious child is never first?

Bloody hell Devora that's truly shocking. I'd be fuming if I was you. It's so very wrong.

In France there are plenty of faith schools: in Paris, 23% of the population of school aged DC currently attend Catholic schools. However, they are not state schools. They are private schools with charitable status that receive a significant state subsidy in return for teaching the NC. Crucially, these schools are allowed to select their pupils but not on the basis of religious affiliation.

Devora - well that's not good is it, how annoying.
There just seems to be fewer faith schools than non faith schools in most areas I've known, but it's obviously a problem in some areas. I also take the point about Catholic children having choice of all schools, but again ime, the vast majority would rather go to the Catholic schools, & the parents jump through various hoops to get their children in!

But do they want them to go to the school because it is Catholic or because it is good. (What with the whole selection by stealth thing meaning that you lose all the "undesirables")

I guess the question is:-

If you have an area with two schools - a secular one that is outstanding and gets brilliant results and a catholic one that is seriously failing and all the kids leave significantly behind where they should be - which does the average Catholic parent put down?

My DDs go to a catholic primary school we are Catholic. Our school grounds,building etc is owned by the church they also pay for repairs, expansion, new building etc. I think it is entirely reasonable that since they are paying for it, priority should be given to those who go to church. Having said that our admission policy says that SEN and LAC get priority over EVERYONE else. Also that our school is now 50/50 Catholic and non catholic. We also employ 50/50 maybe more non Catholics if you include support and nursery staff and only the head teacher position is it a requirement to be Catholic.

Previously when the school went into special measures it was undersubscribed and then it was 90% catholic despite a crappy ofsted the local Catholic community(many parents have a long history with the school) stood by the school and the staff. Suddenly when we got a 'good with outstanding' the school was oversubscribed.

I send my dds to a Catholic school as I believe in the faith (not necessarily the institution) I personally object to the way some some state schools push religion in none faith schools. In a school my husband previously worked it was evangelical in its approach despite a large proportion of people of no faith or a different faith.

Mumoftwoyoungkids - absolutely schools want parents who will jump through hoops to get into their school. They don't much care what those hoops are. Churches want bums on pews and a link with a school in their community. Parents want good schools for their DC

Then if they ticked the "religion" box then they go to the failing Catholic school 17 miles away and if they ticked the "catchment" box then they go to the failing secular school half a mile away. Remember there are several parents on here who are non religious and are finding their kids being sent to the failing Catholic school 17 miles away.

Two wrongs don't make a right though, so I'm not sure that would really solve the problem.

Flixy, that sounds very unusual. The norm for faith schools is that the state pays all admin and at least 90% of capital costs. The days of the church funding buildings and maintenance are well and truly behind us.

In a school my husband previously worked it was evangelical in its approach despite a large proportion of people of no faith or a different faith.

Was it set up as a religious school, or did the ethos change due to a headteacher or management with evangelical beliefs?

A lot can depend on the leadership and teachers in a school. Teachers at a religious school are expected to respect the ethos of the school but that doesn't mean they have to believe anything in particular.

Not saying I agree or disagree; can see both sides. We are Catholic and my sons attend a fantastic Catholic school; but genuinely I wanted a Catholic education (we are regular church goers) and my second choice was another Catholic school miles away, rather then the nearer non-faith school.

Anyway, just to point out.....Catholic schools receive less funding from the government than non-Catholic schools. The rest is made up by the Church and with parental contributions. Not to say that the tax payer does not contribute the lions share, but it is not quite as clear cut as all schools receiving the same amount of money from the same, tax-funded source. Just saying......

Two wrongs don't make a right though, so I'm not sure that would really solve the problem.

It would improve things slightly as it would mean that the failing Catholic schools would have Catholics in and the failing non Catholic schools have non Catholics in. And the good Catholic schools would have Catholics in. And the good non Catholic schools would have non Catholics in. (Or those who decided that location / a good school was more important to them than religion.)

All of these seem a better match than non Catholic in failing Catholic school.

It won't solve the problem as the problem is that there are less good schools than there are children. It will mean that slightly less highly advantaged, middle class children with English speaking intelligent parents get to shove to the front of the queue than happens right now. (And I say that as the mother of two highly advantaged, middle class children with English speaking intelligent parents who will shove to the front of every queue we can for them. Just because I'm very good at the game doesn't mean I can't see that the game really sucks.)

Jenna - am still on page one but I can't understand why you believe all taxpayers should have to fund schools open to a minority?

It's not all faith schools who prioritise baptised kids. My kids are not baptised and are at a c of e school. Most kids in the school are also not baptised and not religious. They offered communion/confirmation services but they usually get less than 10 a year out of 60 kids take them up on it. Around here it just seems to be the catholic school that is fussy. The Catholic school is also very average. The best schools are the state school and c of e schools...

"My DDs go to a catholic primary school we are Catholic. Our school grounds,building etc is owned by the church they also pay for repairs, expansion, new building etc. I think it is entirely reasonable that since they are paying for it, priority should be given to those who go to church."

Good lord, really? Never heard of that before!

"It's not all faith schools who prioritise baptised kids. My kids are not baptised and are at a c of e school."

Is it oversubscribed?

Also the c of e school teaches about many faiths. My DD has friends of many faiths including c of e, Muslim and evangelical. She came home talking about Jewish customs one week and Hindu prayer another week. All schools are supposed to teach about many religions (and the kids school does) but in my experience catholic schools do everything they can to avoid this.

Yes it is oversubscribed usually by about 15 kids per year according to the figures we have.

Just RTFT. I was waiting to see if OP ever answered the question put forward by JassyRadlett and BertrandRussell repeatedly but she avoided it everytime. The question is:

OP, would you be happy if children whose parents practise religion were given a lower priority in non-faith schools than children whose parents don't?

Maybe because the answer is no and she can't bring herself to admit it.

As for her last line:

Life isn't fair, people will always get upset about something, but we aren't children, we should be able to deal with it, shouldn't we?

What a goady rhetorical question. It really does make me wonder what OP would have said if she had seen a genocide take place in Nazi Germany or Rwanda. Life isn't fair, right OP? But as long as you and your kids are all right, people should just deal with it.

I was undecided about faith schools but this thread has opened my eyes.

Is it unusual? our school is on the same land as the church. We recently had a major refurb and the money came from the diocese. Replacement windows came from another 'pot' from the church.
We are expanding again and have asked the priest if we can have a bit of his garden (he said yes.)
We do not get the same level of govt funding as non faith schools in the area. We therefore do not have the same resources some of the tech my husband previous school had was insane. Our Ptfa much up for much of the shortfall.

We do not get the same level of govt funding as non faith schools in the area. Is this a school in England? Is it independent or state maintained?

JenEric- that is not true my dds go to catholic school, my sisters to another and my niece to another they all have had a very rounded religious education about many faiths. Our school is also attended by Children of other faiths and the children are encouraged to learn about what others believe. We also have interfaith days where different religious leaders come to school. Being Catholic does not mean pretending no other religion exists.

It's state and in England I think the term is voluntary aided so not entirely state funded.

Sorry Tinofbiscuits missed your question. It was not set up as a religious school. The local vicar is a governor but not sure of the reasons why it's 'so religious' it was far too much for me. The part on my earlier post about 50/50 staff was in response to a pp saying that Catholic teachers get 'dibs' I was pointing out this was untrue. The best person for the job gets dibs IME.

the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools.

And those of us in the teaching profession who are actively discriminated against if we dare to apply for a job at a faith school?

Remind me again, why am I paying towards a school that promotes discrimination and puts RC faith higher than education itself?

We do not get the same level of govt funding as non faith schools in the are
You get 90% of the same funding

It's not all faith schools who prioritise baptised kids.

That is true, Muslim schools don't, and it's rare for a Sikh to be baptised as a child.