Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

It's seemingly all about them, so clearly, in that case in particular. Worley can show that due to the body and hormonal modifications there would be a huge disadvantage competing in the male category. So far, so accurate. But then they seem to jump straight from that to the conclusion that because it wouldn't be 'fair' on them to compete as a man they then have to be allowed to compete as a woman, under whatever conditions are best for Worley. Was there ever any consideration of what is fair for the women? It's all very well to say there may not be absolute proof that doping with larger amounts of testosterone than a woman would ever be allowed would give Worley a competitive advantage, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The idea that they might have to be inconvenienced by not having a suitable category to compete in never seems to cross her mind.

Surely in different sports, different physical attributes will have different competitive advantages. Pelvis shape, muscle mass, height, bone density. I'm sure there are some sports where a transwoman wouldn't be at a competitive advantage, and some transwomen who may not have a physiological advantage over women anyway. I don't understand why there is a push for a blanket rule across all sports and for all individuals and think that if people who are trans are going to be allowed to compete with people of the opposite biological sex then room needs to be left for careful consideration of the individual competitor and activity involved.

I'm a long time lurker on this thread and have finally decided to post.

My personal view is that however much a man says he's a woman and even if they're dressed as a woman they will still run and walk like a man. A transgender woman is going to look odd and obvious competing in womans sport, people will turn the telly off, that won't please advertisers and sponsors. Money talks and I believe/hope that eventually the IOC and other sports bodies will have to change this ridiculous rule because of financial pressures. That's a sad and wrong reason but if it works so be it.

I totally support the right of anyone to live their life as they see fit but as a scientist I know men have xy chromosomes and women have xx. I know there are medical conditions that would go against this basic fact but that can't be used to support any argument in this case as far as I'm concerned.

Interestingly when I discuss it with female friends they feel very worried about it whereas male friends think it's highly amusing and won't ever happen.

AND it was actually his choice to have his testicles surgically removed. He should have considered the implications for himself.

Totally prepared to be flamed for that. Don't care

DianaTrent
Surely in different sports, different physical attributes will have different competitive advantages. Pelvis shape, muscle mass, height, bone density. I'm sure there are some sports where a transwoman wouldn't be at a competitive advantage, and some transwomen who may not have a physiological advantage over women anyway. I don't understand why there is a push for a blanket rule across all sports and for all individuals and think that if people who are trans are going to be allowed to compete with people of the opposite biological sex then room needs to be left for careful consideration of the individual competitor and activity involved.

I pretty much agree with your thoughts here. Going back to the system for creating rules - in theory the IOC's document is a set of guidelines and the international sports federations create their own rules. It is my impression that within the rules of a federation, there is room for discretion and judgments can be made on a case by case basis. There is a provision to that effect in the guidelines as well.

Re: the general comments about Kristen Worley and her motivation for the broader challenging of sports federations in the Canadian courts - at 48/49 I don't think she stands to gain much in her personal sporting career. (Whilst I think she had a point with the initial specifics of her own case and the low level of testosterone granted, I think her subsequent arguments about higher levels of testosterone and their lack of competitive advantage sound weak.)

ShortcutButton
AND it was actually his choice to have his testicles surgically removed. He should have considered the implications for himself.

There is an issue of ethics here. It's possible that some trans athletes might have been swayed towards surgery in order to comply with previous eligibility rulings. There's even a questionmark over some intersex athletes possibly having had surgery for the same reason.

out of curiosity, I wonder if the 2d:4d digit ratio might be a better marker of 'womanhood' or 'manhood'. Most females have a higher ratio of .98 upwards whereas most men have a low ratio of .98 downwards. Curiously enough studies have been done which show most post operative trans women actually have a similar ratio to the born female group.

here is the graph that I'm reading the date from

Really, yes, let's use fingers to determine male and female. let's find some other marker of male and female besides chromosomes, genitalia and sex organs. Let's find something where we can more easily convince ourselves that men are actual women

slugs source?

"I wonder if the 2d:4d digit ratio might be a better marker of 'womanhood' or 'manhood'."

Now I've seen everything on MN.

Why bother ourselves with XX chromosomes, inner organs, and genitalia when we have the infallible marker of womanhood that is finger length?

Isn't that what makes you feel like a woman though cote? All the life experiences I've had just can't be divorced from the ratio of my finger lengths

so let me get this straight.. it's a worse idea than the current one which appears to be whatever the whim of the day of the 'transwoman' is..?

Isn't that what makes you feel like a woman though cote? All the life experiences I've had

oh do tell shortcut, what are those experiences that make you into a woman..!

We have been round that buoy a number of times Claudia

Intact the gender critical opinion on what makes a woman a woman is pretty universal and consistent

It is the trans-ally opinion which is non tangible

Why would digit ratio be a better indication of someone's sex than their sex organs are?

"so let me get this straight.. it's a worse idea than the current one which appears to be whatever the whim of the day of the 'transwoman' is..?"

That is not the current idea, except in some very sadly misguided people's heads.

The current idea is the biological distinction between men and women, which you can see in any dictionary. I have already written these out several times on this thread only, so will leave it as an exercise to the student

Finger length? FINGER LENGTH? As it happens, we had this measuring thing a few years ago when I was at my parents' for Christmas. My mum's digit ratio is more male than most men. Strangely she has had four children (two of whom she exclusively breastfed for an extended period of time), plays tennis competitively for her age group, has a degree in maths, is an amazing sportswoman, has no gender confusion and is perfectly clear that she is a woman (quite obviously some male and some female 'markers' there). I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had a relatively high level of testosterone for her sex, given how utterly brilliant she is at sports. But that's all it is. She is quite obviously a woman. Are we suggesting that my mother's digit length, sporting prowess and mathsy brain make her a man?! Or that she should be agender, given that she has also had several children, has a sufficient amount of breast tissue to feed them exclusively and is quite clearly a nurturing mummyish kind of person? What absolute nonsense. I think her chromosomes make it quite clear that she is a woman and I really cannot see why anything else could possibly be needed.

Finger length!!!

Bonkers just bonkers. Fingers! No it's a fanny* that says I'm a women non women don't have fannies. If they are born with a penis they are a man, if they are born with ambiguous Sex organs they are intersex.

*used fanny rather than vulva and vagina because it scanned better. Lest I be accused of using the real words

well I can see that one went down well

LMAO

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