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AIBU?

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To think that the 'Calais Camp' situation needs to be resolved ASAP!

999 replies

Kreacherelf · 24/01/2016 14:20

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413566/Port-Calais-closed-migrants-storm-harbour-make-Spirit-Britain-ferry-desperate-bid-reach-UK.html

This is just getting ridiculous now. France need to take this problem to the EU and ask for help dealing with it immediately. It has gone on for too long and needs to stop.

I don't know what the answer is. I think the UK should take anyone under 18, and their family members. Other than that, everyone else should have to apply for asylum in France or risk arrest. Not a perfect solution, but the only one I have.

OP posts:
WidowWadman · 30/01/2016 14:19

Juneau unfortunately the word migrant is not merely descriptive but has taken a clear pejorative connotation. Or why do you think are white British born migrants to other countries not referred to us migrants but as "ex-pats"?

By referring to migrants as "migrants" rather than "people", the emphasis is that they are "other", which makes it easier for people to find their plight acceptable. Language is used to distance.

This has nothing to do with political correctness, but is just how language works.

emilybohemia · 30/01/2016 14:21

Thanks for taking the time to write those examples of the horrifying language used on this thread tangerine. I think it is terrifying what is going on in Europe right now. The refugees are constantly dehumanised and 'othered' by politicians and in the press. I share your fears. The dehumanisation process in WW2 and the Bosnian war led to many deaths to expel the 'danger' of the 'other.' I keep thinking about when ITV found the emaciated people in the camp during the Bosnian war and I worry similar scenes in Europe are to come.

Juneau, Turkey isn't safe for refugees and it offersmany a very miserable existence that has meant many Syrian children having to work. For a country to be considered safe by the EU, it has to fulfill the Copenhagen criteria at a basic level, including guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities. Turkey is quite a violent place right now, not to mention the problems of no work or schooling for Syrians and the beating of Syrian refugees back to Syria. So, it is comparatively safe to Syria, but the Geneva Convention states people have a right to safety, not just a bit of safety.

'I imagine these children will be classed as SEN when speaking of unaccompanied children being brought to the UK. It is more than likely that children with English as an additional language (or without any English at all), traumatised by their experiences and who have been out of school for some considerable period of time WILL have additional needs'.

A lot of Slovakian Roma immigrants come to the UK and the kids pick up English really fast and only perform slightly below other kids, so there is no reason they will be SEN. I worked with a Polish boy that was a recent immigrant and he never had additional support. Slovakian Roma kids often come from 'special' schools in Slovakia where they are placed simply because of ethnicity which you would think would be a massive setback, but in the UK they catch up and do uk, so I think Syrian kids would be ok too. They may need support for trauma, but why can't that be provided

'Accepting millions of the sort of savages who were in Cologne
It's not language I'd use, but it's clearly referring to the men who carried out the Cologne attacks, not to ALL refugees, nor even to ALL migrants'.

Lumela, this statement clearly suggests that MILLIONS of reugees will be like the people that attacked women in Cologne, which is scaremongering crap really. 'Millions' is raher a lot isn't it? To transer such negative characteristics onto a group of people IS dehumanising and isn't just talking about a sub group, it's trying to infer those characteristics are widespread and innate.

There is DEFINITE evidence of people in Europe behaving like Nazis. A refugee was shot. In Bulgaria, authorities and locals beat and rob them. The injuries the police give refugees are horrific. People go missing. In Hungary a child was born dead because Viktor Orban refused medical care. Recently, refugees were made to sleep outside a petrol sation instead of in Medicine Sans Frontieres warm tents. Boats full of desperate people have been shot at. Bulgaria advised Greece to push refugees back into the sea. This video in particular will stay with me forever and really put fear in the pit of my stomach. I cried so much after seeing this. Noone can tell me this isn't like the Nazis. This kind of treatment has been happening all over Europe.

Elendon · 30/01/2016 14:31

But Widow migrants is a feasible word for these people. They want to go to the UK and may or may not stay (statistics show that many do not stay, and the majority of those choose to return to their country of birth).

Birds migrate, we cannot stop their migration, but we do get worried when there are less migrating birds (as in St Hilda's) or when there are different species arriving in numbers.

I'm Irish and there has been a tradition of migration between Ireland and the UK for centuries now (as well as the USA). For clarification, I'm Northern Irish and born into a Catholic family, but still there is a mentality to migrate to other places. Most of my friends who did migrate have returned home.

I lived in a country, Northern Ireland, that had a huge migration of protestants from Scotland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

BillSykesDog · 30/01/2016 14:32

Ah. Press TV. That completely reliable and impartial propaganda arm of the Iranian state. You are an absolute joke emily.

WidowWadman · 30/01/2016 14:39

Elendon you completely miss the point about connotation and why different people choose different words to described someone or so something. Juneau actually had illustrated it rather well upthread, when she got annoyed by the term "desperate people" used to describe, well, desperate people. By calling them something else instead, eg migrant (preferably with that addition of "economic" to mark them out as extra undeserving) it's easier to think of their plight as acceptable and not deserving of support.

emilybohemia · 30/01/2016 14:45

It was on channel 4 news and other news outlets, the footage was exactly the same. I'm referring to the footage at the beginning of people being beaten with batons whilst holding children. Is that propaganda? No, in the 21st century in Europe people escaping war really are beaten whilst holding children. Is that your only response Bill, to call it propaganda?

Elendon · 30/01/2016 14:47

I just knew Widow you were going to say missing the point about connotation. I totally understood Juneau's illustrative post. I understand perfectly how language works, I studied linguistics at university.

I'm surprised you fell for the 'desperate people'. There are many in the UK who are 'desperate people', who cannot move to other countries to seek economic improvement.

emilybohemia · 30/01/2016 14:49

Same footage, channel 4 news.

Elendon · 30/01/2016 14:51

Also many "Ex pat's" do assimilate into their country of choice they choose to go to, they are grateful for the escape.

unlucky83 · 30/01/2016 14:54

Just testing the term economic people? persons?
'People who wish to migrate move to a new country because they believe their economic situation will be better' ? That's nice and concise
And migrant is not a dehumanising term - it is factual.
In fact to be truly factual we shouldn't add the term economic - they are just migrants.
Just as people who emigrate to Australia or Spain or the US from the UK....
And 'chancers' I think is a good way to describe the migrants who have taken the opportunity of Merkel's misguided actions to come along with genuine refugees...
(And I've said this before - near the start of the thread - I used to know - have friends who were asylum seekers working illegally on fake ID - who had chosen to come to the UK rather than anywhere else in Europe. I know why they chose the UK. I believed they had genuine reasons for leaving their own country (they were awaiting their applications being processed...for years). I know they had pretty awful, unstable lives waiting to be processed. I might even appreciate better than you that we are talking about people...)

SnowBells · 30/01/2016 14:54

Guys. A refugee has the right to a safety, accommodation and food.

They do not have the right to a Western standard of living. Sorry, to tell you this - but not many people in the world have the Western standard of living. If you think that's a right, you're deluded.

The people in Calais are in FRANCE. Which last time I looked it up is NOT a war-torn country. They could claim asylum there. They could get accommodation and food.

They CHOOSE not to.

emilybohemia · 30/01/2016 15:04

Elendon, many expats never learn the language and actually live on the periphery of the countries they move to.

Unlucky, 'economic' is being used for many people that have not had claims processed, when the likelhood is that their incentive for moving is could very well to seek refuge rather than economic gain. Migrant suggests a degree of autonomy, when in actuality many of these people have no choice. There is a massive diference between the term 'migrant' and 'refugee', which is why Cameron chooses the word 'migrant.'

WidowWadman · 30/01/2016 15:12

"Fell for", not surprised by your choice of language again.

BillSykesDog · 30/01/2016 15:35

emily just because somebody writes 'Channel 4 News' in the title of something they upload to YouTube doesn't mean it's from Channel 4 news. Especially because as a reputable news organisation Channel 4 don't show images without offering context. If you'd like to know the context Emily, the border was open that day and migrants were being checked and allowed through in batches. But a large number decided that they didn't want to wait and stormed the border.

7,000 people stormed the border that day. Any group of 7,000 who stormed a border crossing would be beaten back, regardless of what group they belonged too.

And again; we're getting back to the question of your racism Emily. If someone of your favoured race does something questionable it's an isolated incident and should have no reflection on the group they come from or wider society. One European does something and the entire continent is sinking into Nazism. Double standards no?

Have you thought of taking up hypocrisy and racism full time Emily? You're well good at it.

BillSykesDog · 30/01/2016 15:37

People use the term migrant because it's abundantly clear that not all those migrating are refugees. I believe one of the European Commissioners put the % of genuine refugees at about 30 last week.

Kreacherelf · 30/01/2016 15:56

The whole 'migrants is the wrong word' brigade seem to be distracting from the real issue here...

I don't agree with de-humanizing language, but there are bigger issues to discuss first.

OP posts:
SonyaAtTheSamovar · 30/01/2016 16:02

Watch out brigade is dehumanising!

Sorry folks I couldn't resist..

LumelaMme · 30/01/2016 16:09

I have deleted 4 or 5 really scathing posts about different words meaning different things because I'd like this thread to stay on track.

SonyaAtTheSamovar · 30/01/2016 16:12

Yes Lumela.

Just one point on English usage though. I and family and friends have worked abroad, lived abroad and in the past generations some emigrated and were emigrants and immigrants. Never have I heard the word expat used. As you were..

LumelaMme · 30/01/2016 16:13

It occurs to me that we're just about back to 'you can't talk about this without being called a racist', where we were a couple of weeks ago.

Only now we're being told we can talk about it, but only if we use the approved vocabulary and must believe that 'migrants' and 'refugees' are the same thing when they are obviously not

fakenamefornow · 30/01/2016 16:14

You sound like you really fucking hate Europeans Emily and from reading other threads with you on, especially the women.

LumelaMme · 30/01/2016 16:14

Oh, it's alright, Sonya.
I'd probably have been scathing if you hadn't got there first. Grin

Thatrabbittrickedme · 30/01/2016 16:14

Billsykes I don't believe I have ever seen a poster take such complex and heated issues and provide such clarity of thought and strength of argument. You are my hero. BrewThanks

Elendon · 30/01/2016 16:16

emily have you links for that? As far as I'm aware, I've not know of 'expats' (which is obviously a derogatory term in the context of this conversation) who run around molesting people during a celebration.

juneau · 30/01/2016 16:22

Does know where emily actually lives I'm guessing some bastion of tolerance and democracy like Dubai?