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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think that the 'Calais Camp' situation needs to be resolved ASAP!

999 replies

Kreacherelf · 24/01/2016 14:20

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413566/Port-Calais-closed-migrants-storm-harbour-make-Spirit-Britain-ferry-desperate-bid-reach-UK.html

This is just getting ridiculous now. France need to take this problem to the EU and ask for help dealing with it immediately. It has gone on for too long and needs to stop.

I don't know what the answer is. I think the UK should take anyone under 18, and their family members. Other than that, everyone else should have to apply for asylum in France or risk arrest. Not a perfect solution, but the only one I have.

OP posts:
Tholeonagain · 30/01/2016 10:52

Thank you for taking the time to do that Tangerine.

WidowWadman · 30/01/2016 10:54

Good work Tangerine.

Tholeonagain · 30/01/2016 10:54

Widow your link seems to be to numbers of first time asylum applications, not numbers of applications accepted.

WidowWadman · 30/01/2016 10:57

Good point.

This link has accepted applications (amongst other figures)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit · 30/01/2016 10:58

There is a process of dehumanisation of refugees going on in our media and by our politicians, and people here have let themselves be influenced by it.

It's basic stuff, you only need to read up on it a little bit to recognise it, and it's one reason people keep mentioning WW2. The parallels to the language used on the Jews is obvious to anyone who cares to spend a few minutes thinking about it.

"Dehumanization is a psychological process whereby opponents view each other as less than human and thus not deserving of moral consideration. Jews in the eyes of Nazis and Tutsis in the eyes of Hutus (in the Rwandan genocide) are but two examples. ...

We typically think that all people have some basic human rights that should not be violated. Innocent people should not be murdered, raped, or tortured. Rather, international law suggests that they should be treated justly and fairly, with dignity and respect. They deserve to have their basic needs met, and to have some freedom to make autonomous decisions. In times of war, parties must take care to protect the lives of innocent civilians on the opposing side....

However, for individuals viewed as outside the scope of morality and justice, "the concepts of deserving basic needs and fair treatment do not apply and can seem irrelevant." Any harm that befalls such individuals seems warranted, and perhaps even morally justified. Those excluded from the scope of morality are typically perceived as psychologically distant, expendable, and deserving of treatment that would not be acceptable for those included in one's moral community.

Common criteria for exclusion include ideology, skin color, and cognitive capacity. We typically dehumanize those whom we perceive as a threat to our well-being or values.

Psychologically, it is necessary to categorize one's enemy as sub-human in order to legitimize increased violence or justify the violation of basic human rights. Moral exclusion reduces restraints against harming or exploiting certain groups of people. In severe cases, dehumanization makes the violation of generally accepted norms of behavior regarding one's fellow man seem reasonable, or even necessary."

From this page

tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit · 30/01/2016 11:01

This kind of dehumanisation of people was part of the process which ended up with the Nazis and their final solution, which is why alarm bells are ringing and people keep mentioning WW2.

This is the process we seem to be entering into with refugees fleeing war. Where will it end? We must recognise it and not fall into this trap - or where will it end up?

Yes there may be millions more people fleeing war. I'm not suggesting any solutions.

But I am saying, if we don't treat them with basic human respect, or try to understand their plight, and blame them for their own circumstances, we may be heading for very dark times. This terrifies me much more than finding a workable solution for where displaced people fleeing war should live.

LumelaMme · 30/01/2016 11:02

Less than a lot of other European countries but still vastly more than the UK
I thought the UK was putting the resources into the camps in Turkey etc.

Tholeo, the actual quote isn't our cultures can't live together
but rather
some are starting to wonder if our cultures can actually live together.
which is a completely different thing to say.

The children will be classed as SEN
the actual quote to which you refer is
I imagine these children will be classed as SEN when speaking of unaccompanied children being brought to the UK. It is more than likely that children with English as an additional language (or without any English at all), traumatised by their experiences and who have been out of school for some considerable period of time WILL have additional needs.

millions of savages
The actual quote would seem to be:
Accepting millions of the sort of savages who were in Cologne
It's not language I'd use, but it's clearly referring to the men who carried out the Cologne attacks, not to ALL refugees, nor even to ALL migrants.

That was a randomly chosen few of your examples of 'dehumanising language'.

Gosh, I do just lurve selective quoting. I find it depressing. It indicates a complete failure to engage in the debate at any sort of a sensible, rational level, engaging the brain as well as the heart.

Sorry, Tholeo, but after that I'll not be taking you seriously again.

juneau · 30/01/2016 11:03

widow those figures you posted are only for Q2 of 2015 (i.e. the 2nd quarter of 2015 which is Mar-Jun), so they're incomplete and v. misleading. Sweden had 160,000 applications last year and Germany had 1.1m.

As to all those quotes from this thread, I agree that most are indefensible. But as regards the ones about refugees/migrants being responsible for putting their DC in danger - that's indubitably true. What else would you call putting your DC in a leaky, overladen boat on a beach in a safe country such as Turkey for an often lethal journey across open water? No one is bombing the beaches of Turkey. You're more likely to be hit by a beach ball than a barrel bomb in Bodrum. They are CHOOSING to take that risk for a better life. They are already safe where they are.

Tholeonagain · 30/01/2016 11:06

Lumela Tangerine wrote that post, not me. But I think what she wrote, and her later posts, are brilliant and sum up what I was trying to say. I can live without you taking me seriously.

LumelaMme · 30/01/2016 11:06

Oh, sorry, it was Tangerin, not Tholeo
But I xposted with Tholeo agreeing, so my conclusion applies to both of you. And to Widow.

And for all of you who keep referring back to the Nazis, are you aware of the source of most modern European anti-Semitism? Radical Islam, that's where.
see here, if you can be bothered to read it

AllTheMadmen · 30/01/2016 11:06

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3222250/How-Britain-given-aid-refugees-Germany-Netherlands-France-Italy-Hungary-Austria-Poland-COMBINED.html

No one cares about this Lumela, its all very much a case of out of sight out of mind....

It indicates a complete failure to engage in the debate at any sort of a sensible, rational level, engaging the brain as well as the heart
I agree and this thread would have been shut down had the context of those quotes been different.

WidowWadman · 30/01/2016 11:07

It's a bit disingenuous to make out that Turkey is just a fluffy beach resort

www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/turkey

AllTheMadmen · 30/01/2016 11:08

Official figures show that since 2011, the UK has given £918million and pledged a further £1.5million in aid to deal with the impact of violence in Syria which has displaced millions of people.

The figure is much higher than the £633million paid by Germany, and dwarfs the likes of France (£70million), Spain (£21million) and Hungary (£485,000).

Today Mr Cameron went further to announce an increase in Britain's aid spending.

KatyBeau · 30/01/2016 11:08

I drove past the camp at Calais in the summer and was really shocked that I would see something like that in this day and age in the EU. The EU was created to avoid this sort of thing.

LumelaMme · 30/01/2016 11:09

juneau, a lot of them weren't quotes, but questionable rephrasings. I couldn't be bothered to check them all.

People who misquote, or who appear to quote when they're not actually quoting demonstrate a level of dishonesty that makes me very uneasy, and drag down the level of debate.

I'm a tedious pedant about these things for good reason.

juneau · 30/01/2016 11:09

Oh FFS stop going on about the Nazis and Jews. This is not the same thing at all! This is a classic example of people with weak arguments resorting to Godwin's law to shut down anyone with an opposing view.

Godwin’s Law, which asserts that “if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism”.

AllTheMadmen · 30/01/2016 11:10

katy

they have built container ship room to try and house the migrants out of the wet, not ideal but better than a wet tent.

many migrants encouraged by far left groups, or frightened by far left groups will not live in them.

many migrants there are economic ones rather than syrian refugees.

Tholeonagain · 30/01/2016 11:11

I am not a great fan of radical Islam either, or in fact extremism of any sort, but I don't think you have to be to recognise dehumanisation.

AllTheMadmen · 30/01/2016 11:12

Its ironic and bonkers when the world is dealing with a fascist insane group like ISIS who are beheading and slaughtering like the Nazi;s and commiting genocide and yet its europe who are called the nazi's by some posters on this thread!

Hardly do you see the name assad, putin, isis mentioned!

AllTheMadmen · 30/01/2016 11:13

If any group is dehumanizing its ISIS. Its Assad and Putin etc.

Glad your not a great fan Tholeonagain, I am not a fan on any level, great or small.

SnowBells · 30/01/2016 11:14

Godwin's Law, i.e. "The argument of last resort".

Wink

juneau I mentioned that before, and these people don't care...

juneau · 30/01/2016 11:14

Turkey isn't just a 'fluffy beach resort', but neither is it a dangerous place for refugees to be. The people who are choosing to board unsafe boats from Turkish beaches without proper life jackets are responsible for the safety of themselves and their DC. They can stay in Turkey quite safely where the UNHCR and many charities are working to help them. Is it luxurious? No, of course not. But neither is it somewhere they need to flee from and risk their lives and those of their DC to do so.

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 30/01/2016 11:15

Been lurking on this thread for ages and am a little reluctant to post due to the subject being directly linked to my employment.
However, I was just about to post Godwin's Law when juneau beat me to it Grin

juneau · 30/01/2016 11:18

Please, jump right in chief. We need a few more with a bit of sense on this thread!

tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit · 30/01/2016 11:18

I am well aware of Godwin's law.

It doesn't apply if there are real and genuine parallels and shouldn't be used as a get out to refuse to think critically about lessons from the past against current events.