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Original poster

To think that the 'Calais Camp' situation needs to be resolved ASAP!

999 replies

Kreacherelf · 24/01/2016 14:20

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413566/Port-Calais-closed-migrants-storm-harbour-make-Spirit-Britain-ferry-desperate-bid-reach-UK.html

This is just getting ridiculous now. France need to take this problem to the EU and ask for help dealing with it immediately. It has gone on for too long and needs to stop.

I don't know what the answer is. I think the UK should take anyone under 18, and their family members. Other than that, everyone else should have to apply for asylum in France or risk arrest. Not a perfect solution, but the only one I have.

OP posts:
unlucky83 · 27/01/2016 09:48

zzzzz That video ...is so biased it can't be taken seriously...
Do you not think it is better to help the people in the camps around Syria?
Provide more aid, better living conditions. I would imagine the amount of money spent on managing, educating, policing, housing, feeding the refugees in Europe would go a lot further spent helping them in the neighbouring countries.
It would leave the strongest locally to help fight if necessary and to rebuild Syria. Taking qualified people as mentioned in that video - doctors, lawyers etc -is worse. These people take years to train - who is going to do those jobs in a new Syria? Syria will need all the good people it can find to get back to anywhere near the standard of living they had before the civil war.
If Europe refused to take any more - closed the borders and turned people back (to the safe camps) people smuggling would still go on but nothing like at this scale. Lives would be saved as they would be less likely to make dangerous crossings...

And all that is ignoring the fact that (as indicated by the nationalities of those arrested after the NYE attacks) a lot of the people coming are chancers - economic migrants tagging along - not genuine refugees. A lot who say they are Syrian won't be...they will be on fake ID.
My argument against economic migrants is whilst I can see and understand and sympathise why they come they are the ones with the get up and go, the desire to makes things better, the ones that could make a difference in the countries they come from.
I have this argument with my DP - in this country we have it easy - some of it is from the Empire and the Industrial revolution...
But the rights of workers, normal people were hard won - people died for them - like the Tolpuddle matyrs, the Luddites and others (having a mind blank but you can find them with a google). At one point being in a trade union was illegal ...the Trade unions went on to form the Labour party who introduced the welfare state...
Those people fought and died to make their lives better - which has made our lives better - we wouldn't have what we have today if they could have upped and left and gone somewhere better...

MorrisZapp · 27/01/2016 09:49

If we take in more refugees, how will this result in fewer people drowning trying to get here? The video states fewer will drown.

MorrisZapp · 27/01/2016 09:59

I agree with unlucky. The video suggests that the only option for refugees is settling in rich countries. Yet they say the refugees are skilled and professional. Surely these people are desperately needed nearer their home countries. Aid should be given there, not here. I understand why they have iphones, I don't grudge anybody a decent phone. I don't know, I suppose I think if they can plan and communicate and support each other on a hazardous journey across continents, they could use that community as a stronger force for change at home? I'm basically clueless about civil war but they can't all be evil warmongers.

Hotpatootietimewarp · 27/01/2016 10:00

zzzzz still hasn't answered where all those refugees they think we should take will live??

MorrisZapp · 27/01/2016 10:04

And yes, we didn't become a safe country with equal rights or a welfare state by leaving it.

TheNewStatesman · 27/01/2016 12:02

www.spectator.co.uk/2015/08/if-you-really-want-to-help-refugees-look-beyond-the-mediterranean/

Paul Collier has a good, practical proposal which would be fair to both refugees and Europeans. Worth reading.

OTheHugeManatee · 27/01/2016 12:06

Not sure if anyone's shared this yet - that prompted this thread to start in the first place.

It makes pretty horrific viewing to me.

pickaFLOWER · 27/01/2016 13:08

unfortunately I have first hand experience of living next-door to a family of Bosnian refugees 20 years ago, to be honest, I don't think you would read it and believe me just how awful it was.

januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 13:16

OTheHuge, that is terrible.

Other than fuelling his messiah complex, what exactly did JC achieve?

Anyone with a connection to the UK?

He's sounding dangerously like Merkel.

DC is right, the truly vulnerable could not make that trip or rip out those fences.

januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 13:20

TheNew, I thought this quote

It is an intellectually lazy feel-good policy for the bien‑pensant

very true. That was a great article.

What would be the drawbacks to such a scheme?

OTheHugeManatee · 27/01/2016 14:17

My visceral reaction watching that video was 'This isn't migration, this is a hostile invasion'. I don't want to have that reaction, because it sounds so BNP-ish when I say it out loud. But, logically, what is an invasion except a lot of people moving into your country against the will of the people already living there, and bringing their own rules and culture with them?

januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 15:15

I worry for the people trying to use the ferries and ports lawfully.

My family used to travel through there all the time, windows open.

It's shocking. And as I am tiring of pointing out, these aggressive and strong young men are contributing pejoratively to the argument for hosting genuine refugees.

I have noticed a complete sea change in attitudes around me. Even the most vocal 'throw wide the doors, those poor children, take EVERYONE' friends are noticeably thoughtful.

We will end up hurting the most vulnerable if all; the silent ones who are too poor, too injured, too ill or just not important enough to make the journey.

The only people, other than the fanatical, impractical virtue-signallers, who can get anything positive from this are the criminal people smugglers whose pockets we line every day.

TwistedReach · 27/01/2016 20:04

I feel really sad watching that- it doesn't scare me.
They are desperate and living in hell. They chant, 'no jungle no jungle' and even though they know really it won't work, there is that 'if only' kind of hope- even though really it is hopeless. They want a life. They are protesting because their situation is dire and nobody is helping them.

OneWingWonder · 27/01/2016 20:08

TwistedReach

'They are desperate and living in hell'

No, they are living in France.

France ≠ Hell.

TwistedReach · 27/01/2016 20:13

The limbo of the freezing, squalid and dehumanising camps in which they are brutalised by the French police - is not a place to live.

OneWingWonder · 27/01/2016 20:24

Twisted

'The limbo of the freezing, squalid and dehumanising camps in which they are brutalised by the French police - is not a place to live.'

So, their home countries are not a place to live, Turkey is not a place to live, Greece is not a place to live, France is not a place to live ... but only the shining paradise of Britain will do? Can you not see that these people are literally shopping around for the best deal, not running for their lives?

Siwi · 27/01/2016 21:00

What was the logo on the English language placards in the video?

OTheHugeManatee · 27/01/2016 21:02

Well they don't have to stay in Calais. Why not go elsewhere in France? Asylum only applies if you fear for your life. Just not liking France very much doesn't qualify someone for asylum in the UK.

SnowBells · 27/01/2016 21:11

OneWingWonder is right.

It's ridiculous. If you are really so hard done by fleeing from a freakin' war you should be bloody happy to be somewhere where no missile is gonna hit you anytime soon. I mean seriously. WTF.

The Turkish are perfectly fine living in Turkey. I have former colleagues from London who were Turkish and now moved back there. Looking at Facebook, they live a better-than-average life. But that country - apparently - is not good enough for them.

The Greeks have had their share of problems, but they didn't set off en masse to the UK. They stayed where they are.

And Britain will NOT be any better than France. There are people who moved from France to the UK, and their lifestyles declined.

They could also have moved to some of the more stable countries around Syria, e.g. Jordan... it's a is a country defined by migration, and many genuine refugees have moved there, and have been accepted there. If it's really just safety you want, you'd move there. The people who did are probably the kind of refugees who would move back to Syria, if the could.

But as it stands, those people in Calais are opportunistic. They are cherry-picking where to move... which is not the definition of a refugee. They are in a safe country now. They are still not happy. They also won't be happy, if they come to the UK and see that this place is defined by a class system, and they will likely have to start from the bottom.

HelenaDove · 27/01/2016 21:24

As well as when they catch sight of the state of some of the UKs rental accomodation.

TwistedReach · 27/01/2016 21:25

I wrote this on the other thread but my experience of meeting in the camp makes me feel clear that you would not be there unless you felt that other options were even more dire.

There is not an easy solution to any of this. But we cannot leave people on our border to rot in this way- it is completely inhumane.
That is not to go against the idea of helping fund camps nearer people's home countries. It doesn't have to be either/or.
There is lots of talk about Syria (rightly) but I heard equally terrible stories about what people were fleeing from from Sudan, for example. One man had the most horrific photos on his phone that I have ever seen in my life- of what had happened to his family and community. He wanted fellow humans to see what was happening to his home. He knew I could do nothing to get him out of the camp, he just needed other people to know something of the horror they were and are experiencing. Someone to bear witness. Meanwhile a young boy with him was completely zoned out, couldn't concentrate, looked dissociated. One of the others saw me looking concerned and said that this young boys best friend had died the day before trying to get to the uk. The boy became upset and left the tent. These people are the ones that are being described as lacking rules, 'thuggy'- and not wanted here because they are criminals. One of the young men in that group, had applied for asylum in France- months later he was still in the camp, because the French don't house them. The first man with the pictures, whose children and parents had been murdered in Sudan has a wife already in the uk- he wants to get to her. The others were terrified of further persecution in France- they all had wounds and stories to tell about the abuse they have suffered at the hands of the French police. They are scared that that is what a life in France will consist of- they don't believe they will stand a chance there.
There are children too ofcourse but I don't want to share their stories here. But they are young, living in squalor and are growing up thinking that nobody cares. There is now measles in the camps which will no doubt lead to more deaths.
It is hard to stomach the generalisations being made about 'economic migrants' in Calais. Nobody would be there if they felt they had a better alternative.

ginghamcricketbox · 27/01/2016 21:31

SIWI Socialist Workers Party, there was a few Unite flags too.

unlucky83 · 27/01/2016 21:32

So twisted what are the occupation levels of the new container houses right now? The ones with beds, heating and power sockets? Are they full?

HelenaDove · 27/01/2016 21:33

Thankyou for posting that Twisted. In NO way do i think they are chancers. There are a tiny minority of them who are causing problems but its the same in any situation where there ia a big group of people.

emilybohemia · 27/01/2016 21:43

The refugee came at Calais is hellish. Kids are there in squalor losing weight and cold. There is no doubt about that. People are there that want to apply for asylum in France but have no other place to go.

Snowbells, so fleeing war or misery means you should be pleased to live in squalor in the cold with inadequate shelter and little food, where disease may break out, which hinders your health and safety, where neo Nazis attack and tear gas canisters are chucked in?

'The Turkish are perfectly fine living in Turkey. I have former colleagues from London who were Turkish and now moved back there'.

Refugees can't work in Turkey and their kids can't go to school. It isn't terribly safe for refugees either.

They are not opportunisitc, they are desperate people and your worda ride roughshod over the pure horror and misery they have been through. They are not safe in Calais. A guy there has just had the absolute shit beaten out of him.

No, they're not happy. I wouldn't be either in their position. Wh shouldn't the choose where they want to live? They may have family where they want to go.

It amazes me how the most vulnerable, the very weakest and the most needy are being portrayed as greedy selfish vultures coming to grab all they can.

It's holocaust memorial day. I suggest you try reading about how people were previously labelled as greedy, dangerous, selfish threats and what happened next.