AIBU to think that this has gone way too far?

[dorade]

The Alberta Government in Canada has issued guidelines to schools that essentially allows kids to 'identify' however they want, use whichever toilet/changing room they want and play on whichever sport team they want.

I can't help feeling this is bad for girls.

(PS I'm a long time mumsnetter (2004), just have not posted for ages)

Interesting story about your co-worker, Lagoon. I think that what's missing from the most worrying developments is women's voices. When the girls at a school or in a football team say "This doesn't work for us", they are told to shut up and put up - often violently and with support of the law.

If you and your fellow women felt threatened or invaded by your trans co-worker's presence in your loos, then HR should have an obligation to take this into account - and to make adjustments accordingly. It is strange that women can be silenced & made to comply with the wishes of transwomen.

As you posted above, it's not the same as a bunch of workers saying they won't share with a black woman or a lesbian. Any such objections could only be based on prejudice, because black or lesbian women are physically women - which is the defining characteristic in sex-segregated areas.

If the lesbian woman's given to ogling other women's tits, she can be told by HR to moderate her behaviour. So, I hope, should the transwoman - but I rather fear the offended women would be told to wear baggy tops instead!

In my primary school the infants block was built in the late 1980's. There are two yrR and two yr1 classrooms, one on each side and a big open area in the middle with the dressup/role play/sand pit/water etc. In between the reception and yr1 rooms is a shared coatroom and a toilet. There are four cubicles and a set of sinks. The cubicles are half height, which is plenty high enough for four - six year olds, but low enough that a teacher could see (and reach over to unlock the door) if there was a problem.
The toilets are not segregated, and the kids don't care. We certainly didn't think it was weird after all you use the same toilet as everyone else at home. The only time I ever gave it some thought was as a yr6 helper both me and the boy from my class were helping out and needed the loo. We both went, laughed at how different it was and didn't make eye contact over the top of the stall. He didn't look at me, I didn't look at him. We washed our hands and moved on.

My university has unisex toilets, with no urinals, and it's fine. I mean I found it a bit odd when I went in and found two guys in drag doing their make up (charity event), but that was fine. They didn't care about what I was doing.

As for school changing rooms, what about the girls that are terrified of getting undressed near other girls? Bullies who might take pictures, or laugh at you because your mother won't buy you a push up bra or let you shave your legs? They have to put up with it, and presumably we trust teachers to keep an eye on them and make sure nothing bad happens.
Also, I think most girls aren't stripping down to nothing and waltzing around. My memories of PE at school were trying to get dressed as quickly as possible while showing as little as possible (even in my all girls school). And even then, even if you are stripping down to your bra and knickers how is that worse than wearing a bikini on the beach or to the pool where there will be horny boys with camera phones. I also expect these girls to never be going out in short shorts and crop tops, because men might leer at them? These are separate issues, if we are saying men cannot be trusted around women full stop then we have bigger problems than if a young woman needs a vagina to be allowed to change with other young women.

".. then we have bigger problems than if a young woman needs a vagina to be allowed to change with other young women"

Well you see now, for some of us this is the crux of it. It's not that long ago that a young woman did have a vagina. It's only since we fell down the rabbit-hole that we've had to pretend that young women don't always have vaginas because some of them have penises.

I share similar views on toilet facilities, Seryph. I can't see any evidence to support the importance, and even necessity, of separate toilets for women, when the reality is people use unisex as well as designated toilets without batting an eyelid (e.g. in homes, some workplaces, toilets for those with disabilities, on planes etc). I find the assumption bizarre that women are at risk from men (and transwomen) in shared toilet facilities, but safe if they are in segregated toilet facilities. The perceived need (by some) for separate toilets is not a requirement based on sex differences since toilet designs can accommodate male and female genitalia. People seem to cope perfectly well with unisex toilets when they have to. The argument for separate toilets is down to gender stereotyping.

I don't comment much on the toilet/changing issue because I have no problem with mixed-sex. I do, though, understand that many people's need for privacy is greater than mine and that, for some, mixed facilities bring deep fear. I don't see myself as 'better' than them or feel their issues should be ignored.

It's a symptom of something very big and anti-women that is happening.

Going back to the "ladies loos" thing: have you never thought that the toilets are the only safe women's space in a bar, club or cafe? The whole place is a men's space in the sense that males tend to dominate the spaces physically and vocally, and women tend to be subject to male scrutiny much of the time. This is why women often go to the loo in pairs and groups. Obviously they're not all terrified of pissing on their own; it's that they want to chill out for a few minutes away from the ever-present 'male gaze'.

I guess I just don't see what genitalia has to do with it. I don't go to a pub and suddenly think every man in the room is the centre of attention and staring at me. I'm too busy having my own evening. If a person bothers me or my friends I ask them to leave us alone, if they don't I get the staff to deal with. Then I go back to my evening.
I don't hide in the loo, I go to the loo with my friends because I don't see peeing as being a reason to stop the conversation. I follow my male friends to the bathroom and chat to them through the door and they do the same with me, and my female friends. (Though that isn't possible in public loos because I can't follow my males friends and they can't follow me).

Again, I don't see this as a trans issue. I think there are some aspects of this that are but most of the objection here is that biological males cannot be trusted with biological females. And that biological females need their own space away from the biological males, because they are overbearing physically and verbally and in the worse case scenario might attack them.

I've been assaulted, sexually, by men, in public. I've also been physically attacked by other women, also in public, one of whom I once considered a friend and she was much smaller and weaker than me. Segregation won't fix this. Calling out every fucker who thinks this kind of behaviour is okay is. No matter what they call themselves or what genitalia they have!

Going back to the "ladies loos" thing: have you never thought that the toilets are the only safe women's space in a bar, club or cafe?

No. Never. I don't go to clubs but I can't imagine being in a pub or a cafe and being in a constant state of fear.

I agree Seryph

I'm in the US and our school district has just put policy in place. It's very simple. If you identify as the sex you were not born with you tell your guidance councilor and get an automatic same day appointment with the school psychologist. The school psychologist determines the plan of how to manage once therapy is established.

I think this is a happy medium of children being able to identify but not without proper help being given first and a plan laid out by someone with some training in the area.

I never mentioned anyone being in a constant state of fear?! People probably don't go out if being in public puts them in a constant state of fear.

But, fgs, I've never been a group loo-goer, but have certainly done it when a female friend I needed to talk about: gynae issues; relationship issues; a man in our group being a sex pest; numerous other reasons.

www.outsports.com/2016/1/21/10812404/transgender-ioc-policy-new-olympics

The International Olympic Committee has received updated guidelines for transgender participants in the Olympic Games.

If accepted we can pretty much kiss goodbye women's hopes of achieving medals in future games.

Garlic You asked if posters have never thought that the toilets are the only safe women's space in a bar, club or cafe? No. Never. I found that , as I assume seryph a bizarre question.

The rest of your description of pubs and cafes as "being men's spaces" is just as bizarre.

kua
If accepted we can pretty much kiss goodbye women's hopes of achieving medals in future games.

Why? How many transwomen competing as females are you expecting? What makes you think that transwomen will automatically win medals?

What about the overriding objective of fair competition? If the changes did turn out to favour transwomen, don't you think the guidelines would be reviewed?

Because it is naive to think it won't be used by some to cheat
Wasn't there a team in the last Olympics who tried, falsely, to claim they were disabled

is it possible that some of these tw who appear to hate and hurt w are doing this tw thing so that they can hurt w?

The Olympics is very scary. 18 plus years of testosterone will not disappear in 12 months of hormone therapy. Imagine someone the size of Anthony Joshua moving from male boxing to female boxing. The height, the reach, the handspan and then the muscle mass and muscle memory. A male would not have to build the muscle just maintain the muscle during the hormone replacement. Russia and China could have a field day with this.

Female toilets have sanitary bins. If every male toilet now has to have a sanitary bin, it will double the waste disposal contract and bin. I csan see that quickly becoming a barrier to universally unisex toilets. Equally, urinals.

I really don't want to share toilets or changing spaces with men

Its ridiculous seryph to pretend that men don't pose a risk to women

Those pointing out that there are relatively few transwomen so it isn't an issue are missing the point that there are even fewer Olympic medal places available for women. It would be possible for transwomen to completely dominate the medal positions even with the numbers of mtf as they are now. There are teanswomen competing and winning in their 40s and 50s. They will have a much longer sporting career than female athletes. I assume they do not have a menopause unless they choose to and the physical difficulties that accompany it.

Bluebolt
Anthony Joshua currently weighs around 110 kilos and is 6 foot 6.

The maximum weight for a female boxer in the Olympics is 75 kilos (middleweight category).

Someone of his size could not compete as a female boxer.

As these rules show nothing in the olympics is certain, if rules for transgender can change so can boxing weights and limits.

I think fascile has made some valid points as have others in relation to sports.

I think self-identitifying gender has different implications in different situations.

At the one extreme self identifying as a woman with no hormones or surgery and demanding access to a safe house for rape or domestic violence victims with bad intent is problematic. On the other hand Wotherspoon's having unisex toilets or trans women using their ladies' loos isn't, as far as I'm concerned, problematic.

Calling pub or cafe loos the only safe space in a cafe or pub for women trivialises the concept of safe spaces.