AIBU to think that this has gone way too far?

[dorade]

The Alberta Government in Canada has issued guidelines to schools that essentially allows kids to 'identify' however they want, use whichever toilet/changing room they want and play on whichever sport team they want.

I can't help feeling this is bad for girls.

(PS I'm a long time mumsnetter (2004), just have not posted for ages)

I assume people on this thread are capable of understanding context, Lass. Perhaps I overestimated your ability to grasp the difference between a DV refuge and the ladies' loo at All Bar One.

It would apparently be difficult to under-estimate your grasp of the reasons why women might sometimes want to interact without men present.

I think your question "have you never thought that the toilets are the only safe women's space in a bar, club or cafe?" is counter-productive for all the reasons seryph set out in her longer response.

OK, you didn't like my choice of word. Private space, then.

Mary, the sources I've looked for Olympic women's boxing list 3 categories, middleweight being the heaviest. No heavyweight category.

To answer the question asked a few pages ago, I was a very vocal trans ally until thr Mary Beard Twitter abuse. Then I looked into what was happening in reality and saw the obvious and glaring issue with "self identification ". And then I heard about the cotton ceiling and female penises and completely checked out. Transwomen are a subset of men, and I put my energy into helping women and girls.

The idea that this won't be a problem for women in the Olympics may be assuming a First World lens. If you look at the issues women have in other countries, even being allowed to try to compete, be in the public eye, join a team, it really is an issue. Then look at the Iranian World Cup team...

Couldn't tell much from your photo, Maryz, so I found a newspaper article. I'll let the title speak for itself: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/11903290/Eight-of-Irans-womens-football-team-are-men.html

Maryz? It was I!!!

Sorry, MrsTP!

The point I was trying to make that it is perfectly valid to raise concerns about what this will mean for sport or refuges.

I will assume I explained it unclearly rather than assume a lack of comprehension on the part of others but hyperbolic language that the toilets are the only safe women's space in a bar, club or cafe , is not, I think helpful in having other valid concerns taken seriously.

So far as sport, I don't know. Maybe instead of women's and men's competition it will have to be re-arranged on the basis of height, weight, reach etc. Which seems an inordinate faff.

So far as sport, I don't know. Maybe instead of women's and men's competition it will have to be re-arranged on the basis of height, weight, reach etc. Which seems an inordinate faff. The Paralympics manage it so it could be done. But why?

People say it won't mean that women's sports are dominated by transwomen but I think the Chinese, Iranian and other teams might look very different in years to come. Some countries give not a fuck about anything but winning. And even less about women's rights than almost everything.

I don't actually give a fuck about sports but DD is really sporty from a long line of runners and martial artists. She is strong, quick and has reach. I thought she might be a future sportswoman.

I am not on the whole concerned about Trans people being able to use any facilities, I am more concerned about the potential for abuse of this rule. I value having women only toilets and changing facilities.

MrsTP, have you seen this thread?

I would also worry about the effect on Muslim women, who culturally can't unveil in the presence of non-family males. Toilets for them are a safe space. I live in the Middle East and as women enter the loos the veils are off and the hairbrushes and makeup comes out.
How's it going to work for a Muslim woman to walk in and find herself on her own with a self-identified woman who yesterday was a male teenager?

I have Garlic. It's a mess.

Have you seen the comment from Maria Miller saying the only objection to self identified men as women having access to women's services has come from "purported" feminists?

Yes, I can quite understand why no men have bothered objecting - women having no space away from men suits them entirely, or they don't care.

Men aren't going to object because it had absolutely no effect on them whatsoever.

I can only imagine that Maria Miller is incredibly thick.

TBH Maryz I don't think she's thought about it at all.

YANBU
I agree with other posters on here; women-only changing rooms and toilets exist for a reason and that is that some males unfortunately cannot be trusted around women performing vulnerable activities. Some shops like H+M have started introducing unisex changing rooms. I don't use these as invariably changing room curtains never close properly (which you don't mind if it's just other women around) and with the invention of camera phones I just don't feel comfortable. Not a bother, I just buy the clothes, try the on at home and return those that don't fit. Why then should adolescent girls who have no choice but to use the school changing room be forced into a situation that grown women feel uncomfortable in? I don't understand why the trans person couldn't use a separate changing cubicle.

"I don't understand why the trans person couldn't use a separate changing cubicle."

You'd think that would be sensible and welcomed, if the main concern is fear of ridicule/violence should a transperson use the facility of their birth sex. It seems though this isn't the full story and that validation is often the main thing. "I WAS born a woman just like you, just into the 'wrong body', so I have every right to be in here.'

This point of view has been somewhat supported by us well-meaning types who started out sympathetic to the trans cause (and still are, in so much as wishing a peaceful comfortable life without fear or discrimination for all) but look where it's got us.