AIBU to think that this has gone way too far?

[dorade]

The Alberta Government in Canada has issued guidelines to schools that essentially allows kids to 'identify' however they want, use whichever toilet/changing room they want and play on whichever sport team they want.

I can't help feeling this is bad for girls.

(PS I'm a long time mumsnetter (2004), just have not posted for ages)

A child who doesnt want to change in front of someone with different skin colour is in no way the same as a child who doesn't want to change in front of a child of the opposite sex. And I don't believe anyone really believes that it is.

What could possibly go wrong?

dorade I consider a trans person to be somebody who has taken steps to live as the opposite gender which usually includes hormone treatment. Not everybody has the full surgery as it is difficult to get on the NHS (from what I understand) and obviously a major operation.
I'm not setting myself up as an expert btw. I just think the hypothetical scenarios some people conjure up are pretty wild and tend towards fear/hate mongering.

Mizk, I don't know about trans person , but I think you are trans planet

MizK, that might be who YOU consider to be a trans person, but TRANSACTIVISTS consider a mtf trans to be "anyone who says they feel like a woman" whether they've had hormones or not, whether they "live as a woman" or not, whether they have a penis and a beard or not. Can you see a potential problem there?

But the scenarios are not hypothetical.

Being fined $250,000 for misgendering

And the case of Tara Hudson, done for GBH, who has a "7 inch surprise" and who achieved transfer to a women's prison.

And the man who claimed to be transgender and assaulted women at a refuge.

The list goes on.

whatdoiget,

transactivists believe that there is such a thing as a female penis.

It's very scary and very disturbing, dorade. And not at all hypothetical. And actually happening

UnderCrackers what? Don't be so fucking rude.

Nice for the girls who are: menstruating, developing breasts, have uncomfortable issues with their body, have been sexually abused

Women only spaces are vital for our safety and dignity.

I can't imagine how I would have felt as a teenager if I had to change in front of a teenage boy. It was bad enough in front of other girls. We need to just start being sensible here and stop this bandwagon.

Exactly hiddenhome! Dignity! It'd be nice to be able to keep our dignity

I'm starting to wonder if this is just a phase were all going to go through on the way to realising that gender means fuck all

I really hoped this was what would happen. But it's the opposite. Stereotypically gendered behaviour is becoming recognised as a material, physical fact - such an immutable fact that one must undergo extensive chemical & surgical intervention to make the body match the behaviours.

"Stephoknee" really get up my nose! I don't wanna be an adult any more, says the 6-year-old girl who has fathered seven children and enjoyed their mother's support for 23 years. Newsflash: most adults don't wanna be an adult any more. Few of us have the world rallying round as we gaily abandon our responsibilities and adopt a humorously misspelled first name.

Did the scene of her sitting on the sofa between her new parents put anyone else in mind of a cuckoo? She dwarfed them!

This whole thing isn't going anywhere good.

Maki79
you have convinced me that most normal boys will not pull a stunt to get into the female changing room.

All you have to do now is equally convince me that the pranksters, perverts, and evil doers will not give it a go

This kind of thing already happens in this county.

I know of a man who identifies as a woman however she has also declared herself to be a lesbian, she has no plan to have surgery to do away with her penis - she uses the ladies toilets and changing rooms at work... Funnily enough no one uses those rooms now.

Actually, I'm normally quite the sceptic on trans threads, but I read the Alberta guidelines and...wasn't outraged.

Schools will have to provide single lavatory cubicles so anyone who wants to can avoid the communal lava/changing rooms.

Surely teams will still be picked on ability (and probably size, for some sports), so whether or not they are referred to in a gendered way, boys and girls will mostly compete separately.

The guidelines don't seem to me to be directed specifically at catering for trans children. it's more a case of saying your sex and gender are your business and we aren't going to impose a heavily gendered either male or female world on you anymore.

If everyone is sensible there needn't be any disasters.

So if boys can say they feel like women when it comes to picking, say a rugby team for the girls, the chosen players will most likely be the biggest and strongest which will be the males.
Look at the Iran women's football team for example.
It just pushes women further out.

Not RTwholeFT but the single cubicle thing is slightly different here in Canada. It's difficult to explain but the door doesn't overlap the hole as in the UK. So there is a small gap. Not a lot when all the people in the toilet or changing room are women but enough if a man decided to have a look.

That would have really worried me as a teenage girl.

If teenage boys know they have an 'in' into the girls showers, toilets, and changing rooms, there will definitely be both volunteers, and the volunteered. If one boy agrees to take one for the team, he - and possibly his phone - then get unrestricted access to all the girl-only places, and the girls lose their privacy. The boys at my school would definitely have considered it worth a shot, they would often try and get access anyway.

My opinion is that if someone doesn't identify with their born sex, they should be allowed to change in privacy, but that could be a cubicle in the existing changing room. Of course people who have actually transitioned and changed sex should be able to use all facilities for that sex.

I do support trans rights, but not when the rights of trans-people are trampling over women's rights. And the guy who is pretending to be a six year old girl is revolting. What about his children's rights to NOT have a six year old girl for a father? I suppose trans-species is a thing that exists somewhere. Plenty of kids want to grow up to be dolphins or velociraptors - it's only a matter of time until some parents with cotton wool for brains are telling us all we must respect that choice...

"Not RTwholeFT but the single cubicle thing is slightly different here in Canada. It's difficult to explain but the door doesn't overlap the hole as in the UK. So there is a small gap. Not a lot when all the people in the toilet or changing room are women but enough if a man decided to have a look."

I noticed the same thing in the US. I think they do that for security reasons (in case someone collapses in the toilets, or uses it to take drugs or assemble a bomb or something). You are right, it changes the whole equation somewhat.

will be interesting to see how many praising this change their tune when they ask for a female clinician only to be told the individual called Paul with a beard and Adams apple identifies as gender fluid- therefore any refusal to have Paul act in a gynaecological capacity is discrimination

swiggity I was wondering about that aspect of it. While I don't want to completely derail the thread, I have had my working week swapped about at short notice, massive inconvenience (and without being asked either, just expected to cancel my other commitments) because a patient requested a female doctor for a particular procedure at a particular time (my only day off as it happens).

What happens if one of my male colleagues decides to identify as female? Do those patients have to accept him?

I strongly object to anyone identifying as female accessing female only spaces which are havens for biologically born females. By all means have separate facilities for anyone wishing not to be associated with their born gender but don't force women to give up their safe spaces because a male with a penis decides he is female and therefore has the right to use them.

Transwomen are not women, they are transwomen - a separate subset entirely - and should be treated as such. I am a woman and would not expect or want to share facilities with biological males.

Also from Canada comes this story, about the mother of a 12 year old girl who wants her daughter to use the boys changing room. www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-hockey-girl-change-room-1.3353893

From the story "Hockey Canada has a co-ed dressing room policy that allows girls and boys from five to 10 years old to dress together. But at 11 and above, they must dress in separate rooms, according to the policy, although some jurisdictions are exempt following human rights settlements."

Personally, I don't want females in the male changing room, and vice-versa. So shoot me.

How would you feel about a male identifying as female who demanded a place at a womans refuge?