to object to MNHQ forcing a MALE/FEMALE gender binary on my account.

[HairyLittleCarrot]

I don't have any GENDER.

My MN account forces me to pick from two 'genders'.

I can't even opt out, it's a forced binary choice.

I'm not agender, pangender, cisgender, transgender, male gender, female gender or ANY GENDER.

If you want to know my sex, I am happy to provide that information. But you'll have to add that in as a field, because it doesn't exist currently.

Sex and gender are not the same thing. If you insist on collecting data by gender and making it a forced choice I would like an option as follows:

"Reject gender as a harmful, made up, bullshit concept".

Then when you analyse your account database you can say
X% identify as female gender
Y% identify as male gender
Z% reject gender as a bullshit concept.

AIBU to request MNHQ to alter my account details so that they do not misrepresent me?

Bewombed works best i think.

Smilla I thought we were probably agreeing, but tried to phrase my post so it would work either way!

I know that when I was transitioning I would also have referred to myself as transsexual, but it was a clear case of going from one to the other (FtM) and it was only with the psych provided that I even became comfortable in non-binary identity (and it's a long story about why that was and I won't go into it here). Obviously transsexual as a term can't really apply to NB folks, but then where does transgender apply at all if gender is indeed a socialised performance and NB dysphoria is a case of rejecting the box rather than the contents? The whole shebang is a damned complex relationship for each individual.

"I have no problem with trans people having surgery, or not. I do have a problem with the erosion of women as a class and a distinct biological category, the erasure of women's identity, and the complete disregard for women's rights to dignity and safety, promoted by a large number of transactivists and allies and enabled by the government, public services, and a largely ignorant population."

Well said.

until medical science comes out and declares gender doesn't exist, gender is not "bullshit".

Until medical science comes out and declares gender is innate rather than socialised, I will remain gender-critical. I simply do not accept that innate gender exists, and I don't see why I shouldn't call it "bullshit".

until medical science comes out and declares gender doesn't exist, gender is not "bullshit"

That's like asking atheists to prove god doesn't exist! The reason people identify and agender, pangender, genderfluid, genderqueer, whatever... is IMO because the notion of gender has been pushed and pushed and made to seem important, and for many (and there's a real surge in this in my 14 yo dd's cohort) it apparently makes more sense to find a new identity in relation to it than it is just to say - I don't think this is really any more than a social construct, and it's one I'm going to try not to have much to do with. It seems many prefer to say 'I'm coming out as genderqueer' than to say 'I'm just me'.

Gruntled

Just wanted to clarify the persons concerned had penises. I think it a relevant distinction, you may not.

2) until medical science comes out and declares gender doesn't exist, gender is not "bullshit". If gender is bullshit, why do MTF / FTM transpeople seek to switch from one gender to the other, and not to an "agender" state (ignoring the fact that OP doesn't agree with the definition of agender and seems to believe themselves beyond identifying)? "Gender" is, to those whose sex/gender do not align, certainly a fluid state with many components, but calling it "bullshit" implies it does not exist, when the state of having a gender clearly does - but that your gender can be one of many definitions, not just one of two definitions, as it used to be.

I'm not really sure what you're expecting 'medical science' to do here, though. The issue of gender would primarily be an area of interest to psychologists, surely? Neuropsychologists, perhaps, but psychologists nonetheless.

And I'm also not sure why trans people are taken as evidence of gender having a basis in something more than socialisation and stereotype. Trans people are brought up surrounded by the idea that women are like A and men are like B as much as everyone else.

Is that not the more elegant explanation? Rather than deciding that their views of and choices around gender automatically mean there is an innate or at least clear neurological basis that differentiates between those who reject gender entirely and those who (to my mind) solve the same problem in a different way (namely by trying the only other gender option we are generally presented with)?

That's like asking atheists to prove god doesn't exist!

Yep. that's exactly it. And it's also about protecting and validating people's feelings as individuals. Except when those people are women who don't want to be an intimate space with men because they've been raped or whatever. Those feelings don't count.

What exactly is medical science going to declare about gender? Surely biological sex is more their remit?

Mind you, it'll be sucks to us all if they declare it does exist and the force of the lady gender is strongly detected in small boys who like having long hair and playing with dolls, eh? Have to rethink all of feminism then, wouldn't we?

Hmm.

What exactly is medical science going to declare about gender? Surely biological sex is more their remit?

Well there's certainly overlap on these issues - I'm sure both neurologists and neuropsychologists are involved in a hunt for evidence of neurological differences between people with varying kinds of (non-)identification with various genders, if said hunt hasn't already concluded. But neurological evidence of variation is obviously not evidence of innateness. I suppose if it showed an informative, tangible variation in the effect of socialisation on different people's brains it might be very helpful in moving all of this forward.

The likelihood is that you will have at some time shared that changing room with a transwoman who was amongst those women who didn't look at you, whether for sexual gratification or not.

I know that gruntled. There is one person who uses my gym who I have been told is MTT. That may be true. There may be more. Maybe there have been times when I've been the only woman in there.

I have never seen her naked because she always uses a cubicle. I don't stare at her, but because there are only two, I notice her queueing. For all I know she might not be MTT but is a woman who doesn't want to undress in front of others.

She doesn't stare at me or do anything offensive, so I have no reason to confront her and she has no reason to be offended by me. As regulars we nod at each other, because that is normal behaviour.

I also don't doubt that the majority of MTTs want to get on with their lives and have no interest in perving over or intimidating women. Same goes for gay women.

The thing is that some men do want to those things and some of them go to extraordinary lengths to do that. In some cases, getting one over on people is part of the thrill.

There is nothing I can do about sharing a safe space with a MTT who passes in appearance and behaviour so I'm not going to allow myself to be upset by that.

But I am going to object to the presence of someone who is obviously male in a women's space because some male predators invade them just because they can.

A not insignificant number of people appear to believe that because a small number of minor studies have apparently found some tiny similarities in brain function between trans women and women, that they are justified in thinking that trans women are like women in every possible way, and that it's terribly exclusionary and transphobic to consider women as different in any way from the tiny number of biological men who identify as women.

And so it's awful transphobia to talk about periods, pregnancy, FGM as feminist issues which can involve discrimination against women as trans women can't experience them.

Thankfully most people on mumsnet don't buy into that particular bullshit. Unlike all other mainstream feminist and liberal media sites.

YY if a straight choice between male and female, the word should be sex. If the word is to be gender, there should be a choice of 'gender is a crock of shit' (wording open to suggestions) as well as other choices from the seemingly endless pantheon of other gender identities.

More relevant than changing rooms though is the fact that I agree with the OP's point

Venus, on a recent female only support group... Talking about when a woman can have an op post birth. Someone comes along, disagrees with the comments and states "clearly non of you are parents", tw gets upset and turns medical thread into "omg you are all so transphobic cause i cant give birth". Wtf.

If the word is to be gender, there should be a choice of 'gender is a crock of shit' (wording open to suggestions) as well as other choices from the seemingly endless pantheon of other gender identities.

cf the "Prefer not to say" option when the weasel word "ethnicity" is used. (Or religion is asked for).

This is a very good piece on the issues with a gender spectrum: moreradicalwithage.com/2016/01/06/gender-is-not-a-binary/

Since the year 2000, 853 people have had surgery to give them a make appearance.

Sorry, that is 853 NHS

How about "antigender". I say that's a thing, so people have to validate my label for myself.

Seriously?is that all you have to worry about today? What about tomorrow?are you going to object to giving a name and insist you should be given the choice of a symbol?

You need to get the fuck out more.

are you going to object to giving a name and insist you should be given the choice of a symbol?

It worked for Prince.

BeyondCBA, there are idiots all over the internet of all ages, sexes and genders. The fact that some transsexuals are also internet idiots doesn't really prove anything. Should we assume that everyone MN is a racist bigot just because some racist bigots post on MN?