To ask you if you think some degrees (from certain Universities) aren't worth the paper they're written on?

[CarbonEmittingPenguin]

I had a thread in Chat earlier on to talk about the current fear I have over not meeting my looming deadlines for the current Master's degrees I'm studying.

I'm a mature student and the degree I'm studying is directly linked to the industry I work in. Though turns out my experience has only minimally helped and I find academia (or rather dissertation writing) a whole different thing altogether.

But anyway, my AIBU: My undergraduate degree was from a well-established Redbrick university some years ago but the current provider of my Master's degree is languishing somewhere in the top 50-100 Universities.

Did you select your Uni choices based on rank? Would you rule out a potential employee based on their University ranking? Has your degree helped, regardless of where it was from or has it worked against you?

Just curiosity really and more time wasting from me

Smillas that's my experience too. Across several UK Unis (Oxbridge and RG) the variation exists but not too wild a variation. Throughout Europe though the variation is huge. 5 ECTS at Sciences Po I would say is roughly 15 ECTS in Sweden (at the top Unis here). What passes for a Bachelor's thesis here would be one final paper in one course of 6 there. The same again with the Ivies. I only have experience of Yale, DP has studied more there though and says what he teaches here is incomparable.

We routinely warn our undergrads going on exchange studies that they are in for a huge shock. It's a problem too for our high-school students who want to compete internationally for HE admissions - which I suppose is why so many now opt out of the Swedish system and go for the IB instead.

At post-grad it only seems to get worse! The ECTS system, ironically, has only served to show the huge variation, rather than to standardise degrees. But as with all systems I suppose - you have to be in it to know. On paper it looks like all degrees at each level carry the same points and require the same number of hours.

No, I'm a professional who has on to do professional qualifications and my degree (from a poor ex poly) was superseded about 5 years after I achieved it. I don't really understand the angst around bachelers degrees once you're established in the workplace- a lot of living in the past maybe? Talk about which uni and whether it was good enough makes people sound about 24.

I chose my undergraduate degree on interest, and university on its proximity to mountains, for ease of my preferred outdoor pursuits pastimes. My degree is fairly general, and needed an MSc to be properly employable.

There are (were?) only 5 universities in the UK that do my MSc. One was in London - didn't want to go back there - and one didn't offer me a studentship. At one the course tutor chain smoked through my interview which put me off!

Of the remaining two, one had a higher HEFC rating (5*) than the other and it was sunny when I went for my interview. The course tutor was lovely, and 20+ years later is a family friend. Turns out that that uni is very highly respected in my field, and my combo of degree subject + that MSc has made me pretty bombproof, but that was mostly but luck than judgement.

I could have got into a better uni with AAB but I went for one I felt comfortable in. Moving away from home alone was hard enough, without upping sticks to a huge intimidating city. So I chose carefully, based on feel of the city and campus, facilities, and student life, rather than prestige. Although the uni I went to was one of the top for my subject.

I've never been ashamed of where I got my degree at all and I don't feel it has hindered me in any way, although I do admit that I selectively omit the 'media' part from the title where necessary and just focus on the communications bit...

Did many people actually go to a uni well below their academic worth? Eg you got AAA and went to a uni that asked for DE?

I chose my uni because they had a very high level of post grad employment- I have always wanted to be as sure as I can that I am employable. Now that I'm older I understand more about manipulating data and wonder how accurate/ realistic their post employment stats were, but that was the reason. I didn't have any family or school support with applying the university so would've struggled to evaluate based on much else.

A close friend at school achieved AAB but went to the Southampton insitute rather than anywhere more academic- she wanted to study a vocational subject (business studies) so what would've been the point applying to oxford or St. Andrews etc? Again, maybe with more support someone might've persuaded her.

It depends what you want really doesn't it? I have a friend who is pretty sneery about proper unis and proper degrees. She's 40, has a degree from a prestigious uni and a PhD from same. Since then she has constantly studied with OU and probably has about 6 additional degrees. But she has no career (or job even) -the once or twice she tried to work she just never got on with people. She's a bit of a special snowflake and I think psychologically she's as simplistic as the rest of us- she puts down other people's degrees because it's the only thing she's achieved and done well and she feels crap about how her life has gone since.

Obviously there are plenty of people like her in the workplace currently hiring grads putting their feelings onto them also. It's a shame.

Interesting topic. I think it is very industry specific and depends on your aspirations. E.g. accountancy...if you aspire to work in a Big 4 then you will help yourself attending a prestigious university. Milkrounds and grad recruitment are more heavily focused on 'ivy league' universities.

It continues beyond uni....as an employer for senior management in bank/finance/risk roles I would have a preference for candidates from big 4 background. That is not to say there are some idiots with good degrees with big 4 experience, but I'd like to think I could spot those quite easily at interview.

The likelihood of a CV even making it to my desk of someone with a degree from say an online uni, without big 4 experience is highly unlikely. It wouldn't get through HR screening. I am sure we miss out on some great candidates, but given the large number of applicants for few roles, we need some way of shortlisting.

I would always advise to go to the best uni you can on the best course you can if you have big career aspirations.

I agree with what you're saying baffled but I think is a shame really that big 4 and so on is considered so inportant. Only a tiny number of grads will go into such roles so it seems that disproportionate importance is placed on that criteria. I work in house and we mop up the exodus of big 4 leavers after qualification - huge numbers leave (which makes sense as they can't all progress) but they come here and enjoy better pay and benefits and a better work life balance. I've never done big 4 and am so glad I didn't. I earn more and am more senior that my equivalents would be there and haven't been sidetracked by IE having babies. It's prestigious but it's not that important really.

walking - it is a shame - I have a fabulous senior manager that has made it into that position with no degree and not even great A levels. She has worked her way up in the company by excelling at everything she is asked to do. We actually created a 'non-professional' position for her in which she does basically the same job as the qualified folks (but better!). Very sad thing is that she would unlikely be able to get the same job in a different bank as her CV would likely be sifted out at screening.

The problem is the volume of applications and trying to spot a diamond in the rough...hence the need to do all you can to get through screening. In this industry anyway....I'm sure it is different in other industries.

I agree, I now find myself rejecting applications for the same reasons I was rejected as a junior and feel guilty but you have to lower your risk don't you?

I wanted to go to a good University that was well-regarded for my subject. At the time I think my Uni was ranked about 6, and was very highly regarded for the subject, so yes.

Recruitment - Funnily enough, I was taught at Uni that education attainment is a signalling tool for employers, so yes, I do take into regard someone's attainment levels and where they studied. If a candidate was good enough to be accepted at a top 20 Uni, chances are they're pretty bright and capable.

I needed a degree for my graduate job, being at my Uni gave an advantage (employers came to the Uni for milk round interviews, so very accessible). Quoting my Uni now (even though not Oxbridge) still gets a raised eyebrow as in "oh, that's quite a good Uni, I've heard of that".

"experience of studying at different Unis or in different countries all using the ECTS system"

I've studied at universities in four countries, and yes, they are wildly different. I did a taught Masters where we all studied together in one country for the first semester, then dispersed to other countries for our second semester (the only rule being that we couldn't study in our home countries for the second semester). I think our final class ranking was arguably unfair, because the marking systems were so very different. (Not sour grapes - I benefitted!)

As for recruiting, depends what kind of job it was. Certainly by the time you get to postgrad level, I'd be more impressed by someone who had studied in more than one university (ideally in more than one country) than by someone who had stayed put the whole way through, even if that was Oxbridge/LSE. In the latter case, I would be worried that someone was used to a particular bubble and would find it hard to adapt outside it.

I am a barrister and our chambers operates a "university blind" marking system when we select pupils (trainees). We mark according to degree classification and additional marks can be awarded for relevant postgrad qualifications. I am not sure how many other chambers operate similarly. Having said that, we still end up with an awful lot of ex-Oxbridge pupils and tenants, so the selection process still favours those individuals. I suspect this is partly because the type of legal questions/problems we set mimic the questions I remember from my Oxford finals.

In response to the person upthread who said that it's not sensible to do a law (first) degree if you want to practise law, I totally disagree. We are split about half and half in chambers between those who did a different subject at university and those who did law. There's no perception that those who did a different degree make better candidates. There is certainly sense in doing a science degree if you want to go into patent law, and in chambers we have two former medical professionals who now do personal injury and clinical negligence, but we also have plenty of others practising in those areas who have no medical background. Having a law degree will not be held against you.

Welshwabbit that is true but in a profession where academics are extremely important doing law might not be the best bet as it's an incredibly hard subject to get a first in. I did a law degree and I don't know anyone out of my group of friends who got a first. I can't remember the percentage of people who did get firsts but it was very small. Then again, going down the law conversion route is expensive and takes longer.

I have 2 degrees. One was in law at a redbrick uni and the other was at a very new university where I had to have a degree in the subject to get a job in the profession I wanted. I much preferred doing my second degree as it was a lot more personal. I knew all the tutors well, they knew us well and I felt like they really cared whereas at the redbrick uni I felt like they didn't give a shit. But there were hundreds of students in my year for law so it was impossible for them to know us all. I also found the amount of work was larger and for me more challenging than my first degree. I suppose it's not really fair to compare them as my second degree involved placements in a hospital doing shift work but I preferred the academic work the second time round.

Interesting point, BeautyIsTruth, and apparently borne out (in relation to my university at least) by this table which suggests that in 2014 Jurisprudence was one of the subjects with the lowest % of firsts:

www.ox.ac.uk/media/global/wwwoxacuk/localsites/gazette/documents/supplements2014-15/Final_Honour_Schools_2014.pdf

A high percentage of law students in my college, in my year (me included) got firsts, so I had never particularly thought of it as being a "hard" degree to get a first in. That just shows that anecdote is not data!

Did you select your Uni choices based on rank?

Yes and no - I could have gone to any redbrick, so I chose the one I liked the best. I didn't consider any Universities with a lower 'rank' IYSWIM.

Would you rule out a potential employee based on their University ranking?

No, not having worked with people from a variety of institutions. It makes very little difference in the fields I've worked in imo.

Has your degree helped, regardless of where it was from or has it worked against you?

It has helped me in my career. I worked in a scientific field for a decade, it would have been impossible without a degree.

I went to a Russell group university. Partly because I live in NI & I didn't want to move away anywhere. The course & it's reputation were also huge deciding factors.

University attended would definately have an impact on who I employed.

I now work at the university where I graduated from - my degree certainly helped me get the job.

I used to recruit for a large law firm where I was a partner.

I would look at relevant experience first but, all things being equal, would prioritise Oxbridge, Durham and the top London unis (UCL/Kings), then the redbrick RGs, Leeds, Bristol, Manchester etc, but rejected any others ie ex polys. This would be to select for interview, but I would then go 75% off the interview.

However, further down the line, it's all about clients and track record.

So I would say that academics are much more important at the start of a career, but less important later (unless it's a job in academia).

But I think law is probably different from other careers where some of the more modern unis offer a better vocational degree, so may well be a better bet than the older traditional unis.

I did, I didn't want to go to an old poly but I knew I was unlikely to need to. My degree got me my first job, at the level I am now it woukdnt matter if I didn't have a GCSE as my work is experience is far more important. On MN people talk about being a graduate all the time. I've genuinely never given the fact that I have a degree a moments thought since the minute I left university and have no idea if most of my new friends or colleagues have a degree or not

bombadier - when I was at school, the very best students were given offers of "2Es" .... including Oxford and Cambridge. It was a sign the University wanted you no matter what. It was considered the best offer to get.

Hmmm is that the same as applying when expected to get EE though (if not tim nice but dim son of someone or other who gets in thro being aristo)?

Its a long time since i did the whole uni thing. There was a book with i think the standard offer for each course?

Never come across anyone getting in who wasn't extremely academically able, myself.

RG didn't exist when I went to university. I am still not convinced by a self selecting group tbh anyway.

I was the first in the family to go to university and didn't really decide to do so until I got my A level results. Sixth form wasn't pushy at all and tbh pretty useless when it came to advice and support on that matter. So, I went through clearing to an ex-poly (only just changed that year) I have to say that the course and the teaching was abysmal and I applied for a transfer to another course/university (ex poly again) 1.5 years in. Far better where I went.

I needed my qualifications for my initial job - teaching. My result was important but where I went didn't affect my applications or ability to get a job, even at a high achieving school.

DH went to university at the same time and actually turned down his original first choice at a red brick university and went to an ex poly. Not stopped him in the slightest in his work/position. He does say now however that to get into his career these days he would struggle with his university (his results were high enough, just the university name) - when he is sifting through applications they do tend to favour some universities (they like specific ones inc our local one) more than others and never look below a 2:1