To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

[longtimelurker101]

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

No uniform at German schools - never an issue at primary. At secondary it means DD has to choose her clothes the night before, as we had the occasional stress in the first week when she couldn't decide what to wear (but that was probably tied up with the stress of new school, new classmates etc). Choosing clothes takes 2 or perhaps 3 minutes... less time than packing her school bag with books for the next day, which is done at the same time the day before.

All the secondary school kids wear jeans and T shirts/ fleeces... only oddity is insistence on wearing soft shell coats or fake leather cropped jackets instead of more weather appropriate massive ski jacket in winter :o But I know for a fact lots of UK uniform wearing secondary school kids are exactly the same about coat avoidance!

I used to be a teacher in the UK and remember running a class debate every year on uniforms, and the kids always started off anti but ended up convincing one another that uniforms were good because they stopped kids who couldn't afford brands standing out, reduced bullying etc. My kids have done their schooling in a non uniform school system though and, although there is an awareness of not wearing anything "babyish" (which means character printed T shirts, it doesn't mean practical/ sensible/ weather appropriate styles) it has never been a theme.

When I was teaching in the UK senior management were obsessed with uniform and teachers were chastised if they ignored kids sporting a "St Trinians" loose tie and undone top button, non uniform shoes or jumpers etc. It wasted a vast amount of time - the kids were so used to it some would try to use uniform as a procrastination technique "We can't start yet Miss, aren't you going to make Ryan sort out his tie? Miss Paige has trainers on, aren't y'gonna ask her why?"

I think schools are far too concerned about uniform, children/students need to feel comfortable when learning, sometimes in hot stuffy classrooms.

Our primary doesn't have a uniform for every day use, the Head is happy for children to wear what they want - her only requirement is that they have one school jumper to wear on trips/events out of school. However, most of the time my two youngest DC do wear 'uniform' sweatshirts and trousers as they are cheap to buy and stop their other clothes getting ruined in the playground (DS2 in particular who is a very boisterous 4 year old ).

At DD1's secondary they are pretty tough on the uniform - blazer, jumper, shirt, tie and all that - I don't mind that so much as long as they are not too hot in summer (they don't have to wear the jumper in summer term and can take the blazers off in class), but it's the expensive PE kit that annoys me. Thankfully her school do not send kids home for the slightest thing as it's a rural secondary where most kids are bused in and can't be send home easily.

My concern is that it becomes such an issue in some schools that it takes away what should be a comfortable environment for learning, if at the start of the day a teenager has had an argument over uniform it isn't going to set them up well for the rest of the day.

If you're still keeping score I'd like to be counted as a 'don't know'. I think.

At this point in time I would be happy to get rid of it. I don't see the point of it. DS is 6yo and wears a shirt and tie to school. When he leaves school there is every chance that he will never have to wear a tie again. The girls will almost certainly never wear one again unless they join the armed forces or the police.

DH and I work in offices but there are no dress codes. And I don't think people need to be 'prepared' for wearing a uniform if they end up in a career that requires one.

If there was no school uniform I would save a lot of money and I would save time, no more mass uniform wash on a Saturday and ironing every Sunday, and DS would actually get the wear out of his other clothes.

However, even in Reception DS told me a couple of other kids had commented on his Clarks trainers. I don't want him to stand out for wearing the 'wrong' clothes but I would prefer him to not care about such things.

I think on balance I would like no uniform, and if children grow up without one and schools aren't constantly obsessing about what they are wearing they can grow up believing that someone's clothes are the least important thing about them. Could that happen or is that too idealistic?

orangenoodle yes but doesn't the cost of private school uniform annoy you? My friend had to pay £60 for a blazer for a 4 year old, and it didn't even come with the logo embroidered on you had to sew it on yourself (or pay someone to do so)! And he would grow out of it in a year.

I don't mind uniform but hate when you have to pay over the odds for something like a polo shirt which are available really cheaply, because the school insists on the logo. Luckily our infant and junior are pretty relaxed but I'm dreading the outlay at secondary level.

My kids all had to wear uniform up to 16. It was mostly supermarket stuff apart from the odd sweatshirt, ties,sportsgear, and my 2 boys had to wear blazers. Anything from the school uniform shop was very reasonably priced.
I had no problem with it, personally. It meant they needed fewer outfits for out of school, which is where the fussiness came in.
I can see why some people don't like it though, if they have to spend hundreds of pounds on it. I would also have an issue if my daughter had to wear skirts.
As far as the rest goes, I think it's reasonable to ban piercings and insist on long hair being tied up. I'm not sure about make up and hair dye, tbh.

Math:
"Where is the data to support the assertion about alleged constant distraction caused by makeup?" Where is your data or experience of the classroom that says it doesn't? Genuinely it can be as big a distraction as the mobile phone.

To the argument on the perception of schools? "As long as uniform exists, it will pander to the worst prejudices of British society." Oh please, people making judgements about the quality of a school because of uniform isn't about it being selective or public school and about wealth issues, its more about the structure and nature of the school, I think people take an impression that if a school has a good uniform it must be a structured and constructive learning environment, no judgement on the wealth/class of parent.

As such the presentation bit is only a small part of the argument for uniform but one that I made previously. Many others have stated reasons why they like it, and there have even been posts from those whose children are in non-uniform schools who said that they would prefer it. You may lol at overwhelming majority but when I did a count ( and I'm certainly not counting again) it was 27 against and 56 for (some with but less strict) which is an overwhelming majority, there have been plenty since that count who have said that they back it too (mostly who post once) and nowhere near enough posters who are against to catch it up.

Your comments about tribalism? Well in the U.S and other places where there is no uniform tribalism comes about through what you wear in high school anyway I've always thought the "waterhole" scene of Mean Girls illustrated my experiences in the American High School system well (albeit in an amplified version for film).

"Schools are factories where teachers must produce results, and therefore students must not be distracted by anything because the teachers' reputation is at stake. So uniforms are there ultimately for the sake of the teachers."

Uniforms and the appearance of the students pander to the ignorance and prejudices of the public, whose perception of a school leads to higher enrollment, which in turn leads to funding, with the opposite holding true too, and all of this is fine. "

My arguments for uniform are generally that:

It is a greater leveller in terms of appearance, broadly. In can't do it in an absolute way but in U.K schools it does help. This is felt by many of the public.

Parents in the majority back it for reasons of practicallity etc etc.

It can help structure a good learning environment where appearance isn't the ultimate expression of individuality and students are free to stop thinking about what they look like, and can therefore concentrate on the work.

In some ways it prepares students for the world of work, having to fit into a dress code etc etc. It can also help give them a "work" mentality in shool and a seperate sort of behaviour and attitude from home.

The public perception of schools is effected by it, because uniform is part of British culture the presentation of students can help shape a public perception of a good school. This can effect the number of people who are willing to send their children to the school.

It can help foster students pride in their own school/community.

Your points about kids driving, getting jobs going of to Uni? Well it seems kids have been doing that having worn a uniform in the U.K for decades quite successfully (but its harder to drive over here, you know on roads built for horses and carts not cars and we don't do automatics so actually more challenging lol) So you can't really say that we don't do that successfully because of uniform, also most 6th forms relax the rules anyway.

The exam factory element is there yes, but that again is down to stakeholders, parents, school management, OFSTED, the DofE all place huge pressure on teachers to get results from students, and allowing a student to fail because of their own attitude (or ineptitude) is seen as a failure for the teacher.

So there, I've said before that if we were to go non-uniform I'd be fine with that too. But there are lots of arguments for it, and many more parents support it than are against it.

I really like that kids wear uniforms. I think it puts the children on a more level footing and it's possible it gets them into 'school mode' by putting it on (similar to me putting on office clothes and getting in the work zone).

Every morning, my son gets to pick out his own pants (he is 5) and that in itself takes ages so I like that the uniform bit is already decided!

I think school uniform is fantastic - makes logistics much easier. It should look neat and smartish but be comfy. The sense of cohesion and community identity a uniform brings is important i think. Agree school scarf/socks and other peripheral items are a bit pointless. DS and his school have a basic ( school v neck jumper, shirt, tie, blazer, grey tros from yr3, jumper, red polo shirt, grey tros up to then) which is practical, comfy and looks great. only the jumper and blazer are logo items, school provides a tie.

I am a fan of uniform. Easy for parents to organise, stops pupils feeling awkward about what they choose to wear. I do think it should be relaxed in the sixth form - not a free for all but a smart dress code perhaps?

I dislike uniform. I think it bears no relation to academic standards whatsoever. I don't think German schools have uniform. They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves as a country.

I do think there needs to be some 'policing' of sensible wear (eg. not crop tops and shorts which show your bum cheeks) but apart from that...

Ds1 went to a Junior school which was no uniform. Ofsted Excellent. They have introduced uniform now it is going downhill .

Office wear in 6th Form drives me crazy. We had no uniform in 6th Form and it was great. My friend's dd's school insist in 6th form that you have to have a black scarf and it is not allowed to be lacy. Drives me bananas.

Yes to uniforms. Easier in the mornings. All the children 'feel' in school mode and everyone looks the same.

In sixth form it should be smart casual.

And don't get me started on uniformed PE kits. (This is different from the school team kits, which are always something else anyway).

I think uniforms are fine but annoying pointless rules about uniform- I, which top button palaver is a massive waste of time and a bit weird and horrible in summer. At my school there was also a (very weird in my opinion) rule that we had to wear the jumpers inside athe all times so in the middle of sumber if you were just walking through the building to get a drink at lunch you'd have to out your jumper back on first or risk detention

Longtime as an ex secondary school teacher this:

"It can help structure a good learning environment where appearance isn't the ultimate expression of individuality and students are free to stop thinking about what they look like, and can therefore concentrate on the work. " is bollocks.

Uniform doesn't stop kids thinking about what they are wearing, it makes them focus on it. I appreciate my post was too long - but one of my main points was that students use uniform infringements to derail the teacher sometimes - lots of class time is wasted making children put their ties on properly, do up their top button, leave class and see relevant member of senior management (who is usually difficult to track down) because they are wearing trainers/ the wrong trousers etc.

It is a great British tradition to show your individuality by wearing your school uniform rebelliously - every age-appropriately rebellious teen does it to a greater or lesser degree, as reflects their personality - I suppose its a right of passage and part of the national identity.

I don't think there's any overwhelming case for school uniform - as many pps have said, dc in France, Spain, Germany get by just fine without. It's not like 'mufti day everyday', because it's just the norm, not one special day.

Having said that, I have no particular objection to the sort of uniform that dd's school has - black trousers, coloured polo shirt and sweatshirt - it's cheap, comfortable and practical.

The uniforms that annoy me are the ones that are fake private/grammar school style, as if by making the dc look the same, somehow they'll get the same results. One might as well argue that private schools have long holidays, and therefore state schools should get a month off at Christmas and EAster and their results would improve.

I prefer uniform. I think it looks 'neat' and for a lot of reasons, pupils need to adhere to some sort of dress code.
My children have worn some sort of uniform since Reception. In their primary years they wore polos and sweatshirts with school trousers/skirts from m&s or wherever. Now in secondary they wear full uniform with shirt, tie and blazer. It looks good, but my daughter made a point in that it's too restrictive - they have to have their top button done up, can only take their blazers off in class with permission. In the summer they are allowed to come into school without blazers if it's hot - in fact last year they didn't wear them for the last few weeks of school, which was good.
I think a more relaxed uniform is the way to go, so open neck shirt/jumper/trousers or skirt. That's pretty much what my uniform was, although girls started wearing ties of their own volition further up the school. Have no idea why now!! Not keen on polos/sweatshirts for secondary as it looks to 'babyish'.
And def own clothes for sixth formers, it's very weird to see sixth form boys in suits. I don't see the point - save it for when you have to wear one for work or other special occasions!!
As for footwear, they have to wear black, leather shoes, but can be any make. Most girls wear kickers or DMs (only now DD has stopped growing her feet though!!).

I used to hate the idea of it. I'm French and for me it looked like the children were expected to conform, be formatted, turned into little soldiers.... shudder.
My eldest went to the Lycee in South Ken for most of his school years : you are defined by what you wear, cool cats with their logo-ed sweatshirts, handbag competitions for the girls, everyone in trainers, stinky flat feet , regularly stolen coats or jumpers ( and we don't do expensive, so it baffled me!), rooms full of lost property never claimed by anyone, mountains of Hollister hoodies etc.... lots of attitude and money not an issue.

Fast forward a few years, my eldest DS has moved to an English state school and DS2 has started at an English state primary : they are both in uniforms, wear proper leather shoes with support , there is no favourite teeshirt which needs washing urgently , no self-consciousness and checking out other at the school gates.....
to my horror, I have started LIKING uniforms...

however the cheap primary school sweatshirts still get stolen.... I'm guessing tags ripped, and claimed by people who can't be bothered buying new ones, which leaves my DS2 with old faded number I found in the lost property box....

Uniforms are ok but why a Blazer and Tie, I think trousers or skirt with a polo shirt and a sweatshirt. My daughter hates it, so hot in the summer x

TheDuchees maybe that is a private v state contrast, not a uniform v non uniform one.

I used to smile smugly as I listened to Year 7s in an English state school debate the pros and cons of school uniform (very standard Year 7 debate practice) and end up agreeing that uniforms were a good idea because they stopped people being picked on for what they wore.

Then I moved to Germany and my kids have done all their schooling in the German state system - no uniform, and clothes are such a non issue.

Now I think as a teacher in the UK its astounding we wasted such a ridiculous amount of time and energy enforcing uniform codes. On "mufti" (non uniform) days there were so many pre-teen girls in tight trousers with thong underpants sticking out the top and playboy crop tops, and other "inappropriate for school" clothing choices because it was so rare to be allowed to choose what to wear that plenty of children felt they had to make a statement.

In Germany the kids just wear jeans and a t shirt. There is no angst. I just asked my kids whether a teacher has ever talked about anyone's clothes in class and they looked at me like this and said no. Never. Not once for either school age child - one secondary, one primary.

Teachers waste hundreds of school hours on enforcing uniform rules in the UK (if they don't bother spending time enforcing the straight ties and done up top buttons and no big earrings and correct shoes etc. senior management waste their own and the teacher's time telling them to do so).

I think British kids have a different style from a lot of the European kids. You spot school groups of Italian, French, Spanish etc and they all look very similar. The girls not wearing much make up, fairly simple casual clothes - it's all very downplayed. British kids, especially girls seem to be much more into looking older with lots of make up and often wearing more revealing clothes. Is it just me that notices the difference in styles and attitudes between Uk and continental Europe? Huge generalisation, I know.

On the other hand, was watching clueless last night and the styles and clothing were very interesting.

Uniforms are awful. What nobody seems to have mentioned so far is how they have a negative effect on pupils' respect for teachers, and thereby damage the learning environment.

That is, when someone constantly berates you for infringing rules you believe are arbitrary and pointless, you gradually stop respecting that person's judgement. It's true in the world of work, where (for example) one of our administrators is regarded with resentment and irritation because of her insistence on enforcing rules that are not standard in other departments.

It's also true in schools, where the teachers who are most keen to pounce on uniform infringements are often the ones who are least respected by pupils. Petty bureaucracy does not engender respect, and school-age kids are quick to spot the unfairness inherent in enforcing arbitrary rules about top buttons, shoe styles, and blazer-wearing regardless of the weather.

An adversarial pupil-teacher relationship does not help anyone learn. Quite the opposite.

I'm not keen.
I used to live in Germany and loved seeing them going to school wearing their own, bright and cheery clothes with their rucksacks on their backs.

For secondary kids here, I think they should be allowed to wear plain jeans or trousers/leggings/ etc with simple tops and jumpers/fleece cardi etc. At a push, they could all have a choice of coloured but plain sweatshirts on top like black, purple or navy with school logo on but that's all that's needed in my mind.

In sixth form, they shouldn't have to be wearing office wear (our 6th form have recently changed to this). It's school. Not an office. They are still children until they're 18 and sitting in stuffy classrooms wearing suits is unnecessary.

Very true, geeka. I made a similar point in the other thread but was told that it wasn't the fault if the teachers as they didn't make the rules, which is true, but when you're a kid you don't care about that. You just start to lose respect for the adults who seem to think that your top button being undone affects your ability to learn. And if you did know or care then you lost respect for the school for making and enforcing stupid petty rules. Lose lose however you look at it.

I think that the British obsession with class has a lot to do with uniform still being a thing here. People (parents, politicians, schools) really hang on to the notion that the 'smarter' a uniform the closer to a grammar or indie your bog-standard comp must be.

It's strange because it sits so oddly with modern teaching, this weird throwback to the 1950s.

It's strange because it sits so oddly with modern teaching, this weird throwback to the 1950s.

1950s? Try 1590s!

Link fail... That was one of the earliest school uniforms, 16th century.