To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

[longtimelurker101]

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne.. I think there is something in that point I'm sorry. Yes students do think about what they are wearing and how it can be modfied, but even that takes less pressure than having to have xyz or whatever, which some people who have teens at non-uniform schools have discussed.

River: In most school things like top buttons aren't insisted on and I really don't think schools spend as much time doing the uniform thing as people think. Certainly not hundreds of hours, most kids wear it as its supposed to be, with minor deviations lol.

So I spent a bit of today having a chat with my form (y11), and then with some students who were in my 6th form supervised study period about this debate, and extended it further to discuss the 6th form dress code which is being overhauled atm. Business dress or going to smart/casual guidelines are proposed options. The 6th form felt that smart/casual with guidelines like the one above "like grandparents coming to visit" etc might be helpful, they felt there was some competition on looks and brand lables and to look "prestige" (their words not mine) but at the same time looking like you hadn't tried to hard. Y11 seemed to think that they liked uniform, the girls especially hate non uniform days as you can't wear the same thing twice. Shockingly both males and females have said they could go for a form of smart/casual dress code for 6th form. To quote one boy: " A few nice ish shirts and a few pairs of trousers, that'll do me."

I dunno, it the debate certainly causes consternation on here.
I'm really not sure of the business dress thing, several schools in the area have done it though and are reporting it as a success with parents and students.

I prefer uniform for primary and secondary. As others have said, makes life a lot easier! And I think they look smart.

several schools in the area have done it though and are reporting it as a success with parents and students.

Well, of course they are. They're not likely to do a massive backtrack now, are they?

I agree with all the above points against uniform. I think it makes kids have to make much more effort with non uniform days and then going non uniform is compared to this, which is completely wrong. If everyday is non uniform there is no pressure with labels etc. (Well, there wasn't at Ds1's Junior school). As that Y11 of OP's said, you just get a few pairs of trousers and jumpers and T shirts. That's it. No worry that you ran out of polo shirts or jumpers, or a wardrobe with double the amount of clothes in it.

It's one of the things I could think of a few others which I hate about the UK education system.

(PS. I am English and have never been educated elsewhere, but have experienced the non uniform in the UK and realised how fantastic it was). Basically people don't like change.

"Well, of course they are. They're not likely to do a massive backtrack now, are they?"

They got feedback from both in terms of online survey, the evidence showed so.

However, I don't think its a real possibility at ours, although there might be a need to tighten the dress code a bit, I'd go with the grandparents tip myself.

RiverTam, completely agree about the class issue re uniform. I think it's no coincidence that the ever-increasing clamour for more formal uniforms involving blazers etc (is there a less practical item of clothing than a blazer, incidentally, other than maybe a ruff or a trilby) has come about at a time of decreasing social mobility. So, your kid at bog-standard comp is less likely than at any time before the 1950s to go to a good uni, get a good job, do better than their parents than ever before. Still, no need to worry, because you can dress them up like a fucking throwback to that time and convince yourself that you're doing something about their education/life chances in doing so. It's all a bit tragic, tbh.

As for 'office dress' for 6th formers - what the actual fuck? They're not in a fucking office, they're at school, and requiring them to look like some kind of spivvy estate agent is going to have precisely the square of fuck all influence on their A level grades, and also do nothing about the fact that after they get them they're going to end up c.£50k in debt doing their degrees.

A slightly different point of view, but I went to school in the 60s and 70s and loved my uniform. I was quite upset when we could wear our own clothes in the 6th form, because I didn't have many and I think my parents loved school uniform because it meant we didn't need "other" clothes for most of the week.
I still find sorting clothes for work an "issue". Perhaps I am just not that interested in clothes?

Cruik, I think some schools have put in the business dress bit for 6th formers through a trend amongst schools rather than anything else, and in a way to combat some of the less than appropriate decisions made by some students in their choice of clothing.

As I said I'd go with a dress code about making it appropriate, no underwear as outer wear, no offensive slogans etc etc.

DS1 is in 6th Form the dress code is 'formal wear'. They all look great. DS likes wearing it too.

A couple of the schools around here also do the 'formal wear' for 6th formers. They don't look great. They look like spivs. All they need is a little Foxton's car and then the whole 'wanker' image would be complete.

Oh right okay.

Honestly though, if kids are wearing 'inappropriate' clothes to school, surely that can be tackled by means other than requiring them to wear cheap ill-fitting suits. And if not, if our schools really are places that by age 16 young adults are incapable of dressing themselves properly, that to my mind is yet more argument against the ubiquity of uniform, because all of those 11 years of being sent home for wearing the wrong shade of black socks has done nothing in terms of teaching them anything about appropriate wear.

Gosh Cruik that was uncalled for.

Even so looking like a spiv/estate agent isn't as bad as a load of kids who've opted to stay in school dressing like they are in some kind of gang and their arse hanging out of their trousers all using slang about being "roadmen". Or the girls coming in virtually their pyjamas when they can't be bothered, or dressed for a night club when they can.

I actually think it looks smart myself but I wouldn't force it at my school in particlular.

"incapable of dressing themselves properly, that to my mind is yet more argument against the ubiquity of uniform"

Then why do they have issues with this in the states too then? Or do you believe the hype that none of the students who go to non uniform schools ever get it wrong?

No cheap ill fitting suits at DS's school. No suit jacket requirement. Formal trousers, shirt, tie and jumper, proper shoes.

If he went to the local school like DS2 he could join the uniform of jeans and hoodies 6th Form.

In most school things like top buttons aren't insisted on and I really don't think schools spend as much time doing the uniform thing as people think.
You are making a lot of assertions without providing much by way of figures as back up here.

It can help structure a good learning environment where appearance isn't the ultimate expression of individuality and students are free to stop thinking about what they look like, and can therefore concentrate on the work.
This is ridiculous -- magical properties of uniforms vs solid teaching practice.
As well as that, personalising your uniform or the parts of your body that are not the subject of uniform regulations and a few that are is the non-stop preoccupation of many students.

Oh please, people making judgements about the quality of a school because of uniform isn't about it being selective or public school and about wealth issues, its more about the structure and nature of the school, I think people take an impression that if a school has a good uniform it must be a structured and constructive learning environment, no judgement on the wealth/class of parent.
You are splitting hairs here. When parents see 'structured and constructive learning environment' in uniforms, they are crossing their fingers their offspring will not be in class with riff raff and doing their utmost to avoid that.

Perception of a school based on appearance of students is 100% about trying to find an environment that is as close to public school or selective school as you can get. And wealth/class are really, really important to parents, not just because of the class system but because of the perception that people who are wealthy or MC or higher will have better behaved and more focused children.

As noted, uniform exists in order to make schools look toffier than they actually are and so encourage parents to send their children there, with funding following enrollment. Uniform in British schools is inextricably bound up with the class system and all the prejudices that go with that. Nobody wants to send their children to schools where the girls are clearly slappers and the boys look rough.

It is a greater leveller in terms of appearance, broadly. In can't do it in an absolute way but in U.K schools it does help. This is felt by many of the public.
Yes, in many ways aping the school costumes of the upper classes serves a purpose I suppose. It makes people believe upward mobility is possible in a society in which upward mobility has completely stalled.
Maybe it cons them into thinking their children are receiving a comparable education if they wear a uniform that is similar in form to the uniform of a fee paying or selective school.

Why is there a need for the leveller?
Are people so envious of what others have that it makes them miserable?
Is it important to kid yourselves that people are equal and if so why?
Can people not cope with inequality?
Can British children not just stop bullying each other, and is the bullying problem so bad that the general public is happy to see school uniform manufacturers get rich as a result of it?
Are clothes so important that they must all be the same or chaos and misery will result?
How bad are teachers if they rely on magic polyester as a means of keeping students working?

The fact that something is felt by many of the public doesn't necessarily make it something anyone should encourage. The public can be really badly misinformed and wrong.

I am not sure I spoke about tribalism. I am aghast that you think of Mean Girls as a realistic portrayal of high school life, however. Does uniform prevent the development of little cliques?

In some ways it prepares students for the world of work, having to fit into a dress code etc etc. It can also help give them a "work" mentality in shool and a seperate sort of behaviour and attitude from home.
Magical qualities noted again.
'Work mentality'? 'Separate behaviour and attitude from home'? All that from a few yards of fabric...
If prep for the world of work is a factor then girls should be allowed to wear whatever makeup they want to as long as it is well applied. Ditto nail polish, perfume, jewelry, and maybe high heels. There is more to work than office work, not to mention plenty of evidence that around the world, young people have this weird ability to figure out what to wear to work despite the lack of training from age four that British children apparently need.

Your points about kids driving, getting jobs going of to Uni? Well it seems kids have been doing that having worn a uniform in the U.K for decades quite successfully (but its harder to drive over here, you know on roads built for horses and carts not cars and we don't do automatics so actually more challenging lol) So you can't really say that we don't do that successfully because of uniform, also most 6th forms relax the rules anyway.
More British people should consider automatics, because they make driving easier. There is no reason to make things difficult for yourselves, or keep things difficult. Uniforms are a case in point. At least technology moves on.
(Last I heard there were motorways in the UK and many built up areas that have never seen a horse and cart.)

You may have missed my point about freedom allowed in increasing increments in order to encourage the practice of personal responsibility, something that is not considered important as an educational goal in the British system where the philosophy behind the school uniform is to make personal responsibility irrelevant to the educational process.

I think there was a thread a few weeks back that discussed what the phrase "roadman" means.

The use of patios and street slang by the students at school drives me up the wall, yes you live in North London but your parents are either middle class or blue colar workers who now run their own business, can you stop pretending that you are in a gang, cause I can take you to my old school and you'd realise that you really are not "street".

Sorry, rant over.

a load of kids who've opted to stay in school dressing like they are in some kind of gang and their arse hanging out of their trousers all using slang about being "roadmen". Or the girls coming in virtually their pyjamas when they can't be bothered, or dressed for a night club when they can.

Yes, this truly is a ringing endorsement for 11 years of compulsory uniform wearing. It teaches young people what is appropriate, you see.

Just as a point from a teacher I do not spend 'hours' sorting out uniform issues. Probably no more than 5 minutes throughout the day - and I teach about 150 kids a day (and 5 minutes broken down no all in one go).
Normally goes like this
"X please can you remove your nose ring/hat/hoodie/enormous costume ring"
"Sorry miss"
Removed 'offending' item and puts in pocket/bag.
Very rare a pupil will argue.

Make up - usually a quiet word in the ear if it is too much (school unofficially allows subtle make-up - which allows girls to feel more confident - many girls chose not to wear any). Girl pops out to pastoral team and removes make up (again happens rarely now that more natural look is in fashion! - I have not had a make up issue in the current school year at all)

Hair - natural dye/highlights are OK by the school - even the popular shade of red. What is frowned upon is the blue streaks, the Mohawks and the shaved patterns. Causes too much disruption from the other kids. And yes they get dealt with but that is when it starts to take time from learning. Again not a huge issue.

In the last two years I can think of four kids who have spent time in the inclusion base because of uniform. One was at the request of his mother as he had done his own hair and she couldn't get him to the barbers until later (think sideshow bob with the middle shaved out), one girl in trainers whose mum could not afford new ones and refused to wear the ones that school bought her (with mum's permission) as they were 'not her style' (black brogues), one girl who refused to take her cheek and eyebrow piercings out and a girl with shocking pink hair.

So no not lots of time taken or much education lost.

Hair - very

Math
By leveller the pp clearly means that some children are incredibly poor and do not feel so in uniform. Schools can provide uniform for these pupils easier than providing other clothes.

An example of this is the high percentage of absences from pupils from poorer background during 'citizenship week' as they did not have the clothes to attend school without uniform. This has now been stopped at my school and most of the surrounding ones after the data was discussed by the head teachers.

looking like a spiv/estate agent isn't as bad as a load of kids who've opted to stay in school dressing like they are in some kind of gang and their arse hanging out of their trousers all using slang about being "roadmen". Or the girls coming in virtually their pyjamas when they can't be bothered, or dressed for a night club when they can.

Yup.

Exactly my point about parents not wanting their children to associate with slappers and rough looking boys.

Cover them all in shiny polyester and nobody will suspect a thing.

And wrt preparation for work, maybe read Pedant's post again where she says sorting clothes for work is an issue for her after years of not having to think of what to wear to school.

Students who have to put a little thought and organisation into their clothing may actually have a leg up on those who only have to peel themselves off the bed and reach around for the uniform.

DD1 used to have her week of clothing planned in advance. She always had her laundry done and put away and ready. These habits stood to her when she started work.

It's not mere hype that practice in organising your wardrobe is actually a really useful skill to acquire as preparation for the world of work.

Math you make lots of ascertions without anything to back it up other than your own opinion or your experience of the U.S education system.

"I am aghast that you think of Mean Girls as a realistic portrayal of high school life" But thats not what I said is it, I said it can be seen as an example of how teens even without uniforms put themselves off into little tribes and do it by the clothes that they wear. I also said that this was much amplified for the film. If you can't actually take me to task, please don't put words in
my mouth.

The work mentality thing has actually been discussed on this thread where posters said they felt it put their DCs (and their DC agreed) into school mode.

"Why is there a need for the leveller?"

Because as many people have expressed on here from their own experience the uniform hid a multitude of sins in terms of parents being able to afford different or the "in fashion" items, or are you disregarding each and every time this point has been made? Also SOME (note that I am saying not a majority) people who have children non-uniform schools have said that having the right brand is important and they would prefer it not to be ( the lady whose children went the the Lycee springs to mind straight away).

"Are people so envious of what others have that it makes them miserable?"

Lots of teenagers are very materialistic, and I think at this stage its not jealousy but acute embarressment that they don't have xyz. That everyone else wears Hollister but your Mum can only afford to put you in Primark is an issue.

"Is it important to kid yourselves that people are equal and if so why?"
In terms of equality of provision of education yes, if we have people not accessing the education provided from them because school has been made a place of fear, shame or whatever then yes equality is important.

"Can people not cope with inequality?"

I don't think in a school that inequality should become an issue, although it will be reflected because of the society that we are in, I would back any school who seeks to find ways to make students equal.

"Can British children not just stop bullying each other, and is the bullying problem so bad that the general public is happy to see school uniform manufacturers get rich as a result of it?"

I don't know where to start with that one, American children are vile to each other and they don't wear uniform. Could it just be that children are not very nice to each other and that schools are trying to make it so there is one less thing to cause these issues?

Are clothes so important that they must all be the same or chaos and misery will result?"

See above.

"How bad are teachers if they rely on magic polyester as a means of keeping students working?"

Oh dear, UK teachers are usually suberb and hard working folk, please don't attack them.

You are rather dogmatic and never acknowledge any points other than your own, you disregard much of what other people have said which goes against your points, but are quick to site those who back you. On the other hand I have acknowledged that other points made can be valid and asked questions of others. This is a bit like arguing with someone who just wants to be told they are right, when in fact there is no answer one way or the other.

The irony of all the things is that you talk about inequality and yet have sung the praises of the American schooling system, now there is a well known phrase about glass houses and stones.. what is it?

mathanxiety, brilliant post. Thanks so much for taking the time to write it.

I always laugh about this notion of uniform being a 'leveller'. What is a 'leveller' is a level playing field, and we don't have that in the UK. Telling young people what to wear does not make them 'level' - giving them true equality of opportunity, getting rid of private schools, removing the many many deprivation-based barriers to meaningfully accessing any kind of education at all - those are the 'levellers' we should be concentrating on, not on whether or not a person is wearing trainers (ie perfectly functionable, non-offensive items of footwear that have no bearings on learning whatsoever) to school.

Uniform is not a 'leveller' anyway. Even if you make everyone dress in the same shade of supermarket teflon and require them to wear the same impractical expensive blazer, there will always be the kids who are singled out for having the wrong style hair/shoes/coat/bag etc. Surely it would be better to tackle the attitudes behind that kind of herd mentality, to think about the societal mechanisms behind it, to meet it head-on where it first becomes prevalent and have a proper discussion about it, rather than papering over the cracks and pretending that just because you're telling a young adult what colour their hair should be you are some kind of bastion of equality.

So cruik you are disregarding everyone else who said they they felt this way about their own uniform, and other parents who felt it about their DCs schools? Good to know that you may acknowledge that other's opinions are valid too.

"Surely it would be better to tackle the attitudes behind that kind of herd mentality, to think about the societal mechanisms behind it, to meet it head-on where it first becomes prevalent and have a proper discussion about it, rather than papering over the cracks and pretending that just because you're telling a young adult what colour their hair should be you are some kind of bastion of equality."

We do that, it starts in primary/nursery and goes all the way through secondary education, yet it still happens, gosh maybe finding a way to minimise it is helpful, or some people find it helpful.