Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not get schools issue with dyed hair?

1003 replies

fitforflighting · 06/01/2016 13:29

I suspect I may get flamed for this but I genuinely do not get it.
They have a rule against earrings including sleepers. That I get especially with younger children or in sports were children can end up getting them at worst ripped out.

I can kind of even get extreme haircuts with big shaved stars or strange styles that look unprofessional and might not be allowed by adults in a professional work place.

But this week and last term several of senior age children who had dyed hair brown/red/dark purple etc were sent home from school to re dye or put in isolation by teachers with errr brown/red/purple dyed hair! One of the children's teacher has bright purple hair. It does not make her any less of a English teacher or lesson her professionalism in school I don't reckon so what is the problem for teens?

OP posts:
LordBrightside · 08/01/2016 00:19

"Lord of course that was not correct and would not happen today - if it did the teacher would be fired. Education and teachers bullying children has moved on from those days - mainly because of rules that staff and pupils have to obey."

So, pupils should not blindly obey all instructions from teachers. I'm glad we have established that principle.

How can teachers who smell, are rude and/or bully children expect to be respected?

echt · 08/01/2016 00:24

How can teachers who smell, are rude and/or bully children expect to be respected?

Well, they aren't.

You gave the example of your old teacher and the difference between the respect owed to the position differed from that owed to the person as pointed out.

A teacher could smell to high heaven and still have the authority to enforce the school's rules. One would hope that such person would be addressed about hygiene and do something about it. I say hope because such issues are often handled badly, if at all.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 00:30

That was an instruction not a rule. And an instruction that was not acceptable. Totally different argument.

I still maintain that rules should be followed - but an instruction that leads To a pupil feeling bullied is wrong.

Your initial post in your own teachers only informed us he was smelly and dirty - echt answered better than I did - as he was an authority figure you should have treated him with respect as you would a bank manager or a mechanic - the dirty and smelly bit should have been raised by parents.

wannabestressfree · 08/01/2016 05:11

Ah as your posts are becoming more revealing its clear you have an enormous chip on your shoulder with regard to the teaching profession bright side....
I find some of your comments really goady.... 'Do your job etc' my job is enforcing the rules as the management see fit. I work around the more draconian eg provide equiptment rather than punish those that don't have it.
Once again though your I would refuse to let my child go isolation and they would have to be educated legally etc would have no effect at your school. There is a teacher in isolation..... You are given the option of taking them home though and that's where they remain until the problem is addressed. Or you find another school.
And it does work.....

mathanxiety · 08/01/2016 05:52

What could be a clearer case of slut shaming than asking a girl to remove red lipstick but allowing 'discreet' lipstick/makeup?
'Red lipstick is just not suitable for a girl in school and not necessary.' Asking a girl in class to remove any makeup (or earrings, etc) is really bad form, imo.

I agree with Giles -- either it all goes or it all stays. Otherwise you are left with ridiculous differentiation between shades of red, or pure subjectivity as to the intent of the user or nature of lip gloss. No doubt there are many girls being made miserable because others are allowed to wear it and their parents won't let them. There are parents out there who don't let their children wear lip gloss until their teens. Chapstick yes, bubblegum flavour tinted lip gloss, no.

The difference between teenage girls and 'dirty doctors/nurses/etc' is that in the latter case grown adults are being used as material for titillation. When the clothing assigned to teenage girls becomes a fetish object then maybe it is time to explore other options.

But the issue is not really sexualisation associated with uniform per se. That is something of a side show, that illustrates the perils of unintended consequences. The rest of the unintended consequences of setting up teachers as judges of girls' appearance is what is really significant. At stake is the question of whether girls are equals in the classroom or just viewed however subconsciously as a potential distraction for boys, and the disproportionate time and attention accorded to policing the appearance of girls suggests that schools believe that boys need protection from distraction and that they exist more for the benefit of boys than for girls.

The class of students most likely to be adversely affected by problems in the class environment is actually girls who are relatively quiet and well behaved but who are in class with boys who are unruly or who are actually rewarded for disregarding classroom etiquette (calling out answers instead of waiting to be called on, for instance) and attention-seeking behaviour (often met with humour by teachers, or treated as humour and acceptable), while girls' attention-seeking is considered inappropriate or too rowdy, and unacceptable.

Aside from outright and identifiable breaches of classroom rules that boys get away with and girls do not, girls tend to be the victims of a multitude of micro-inequities in the classroom -- they are asked lower level questions, they are given less constructive feedback in verbal interactions, they are called upon less frequently and are expected to observe classroom etiquette in Q&A sessions so if they call out an answer they are reprimanded, they receive fewer follow up questions or challenges to defend their answer, and immediate feedback for correct answers tends to be muted compared to what boys receive.

One way or another, boys dominate classrooms. Yet if you looked at uniform policies, you would think that girls distracting boys with their lipstick or their false eyelashes or their skirts at mid thigh was an actual issue, or that girls focusing on all of that was a problem, when really what needs to be looked at is the (perhaps) unconscious bias of teachers. Girls going all out for physical appearance is an issue because it shows that somewhere along the line girls have decided that they won't try any more in class, and they will focus instead on something that is almost 100% sure to get attention, and is completely fine up to a point in the world outside of school -- their appearance.

The appearance of girls involved in uniform infractions is not an issue because of its distraction potential. Schools should realise that it is a symptom of a deep malaise and it will not be cured by crackdowns on uniform infractions. That is a case of mistaking the symptom for the disease. A school that is spending a lot of time dealing with girls' uniform infractions needs to ask itself a lot of questions about whether girls are really accorded the same welcome in school as boys, and about classroom culture, and about gender expectations.

Girls involved in fights and concerns about gel nails -- fighting needs to be explored. It is not ok for girls to be involved in fights as long as their gel nails aren't going to gouge out someone's eye. What are they fighting about? If fights are about boys then a school urgently needs to examine the sort of learning environment it is creating, whether girls are really engaged and encouraged or whether they are just staying under the radar and not causing trouble. When girls are involved in fights at all, something is wrong in the culture. The squeaky wheel gets the oil unless it is a girl wheel, in which case it will be told to follow classroom rules or unroll its skirt or go to the bathroom and wipe off all that mascara.

Uniforms can therefore mask problems rather than curing them. They do not cause all of the issues girls face in schools but they make it harder to identify them and deal with them. They do contribute (as do dress codes that police expressions of female sexuality such as earrings and makeup) to the idea that girls can only be pretty and relationship material or smart, a really damaging false dichotomy that can alienate many girls from taking studying seriously.

They also contribute to the idea that many boys and men entertain, that a conventionally 'feminine' woman, or one with large boobs, or one whose hair is blonde or who likes red nail polish or whose voice is light and high could not possibly be anything other than a bimbo/slut/sexually available. It is a real problem when a society feels that women must almost take the veil in order to be taken seriously (but they must not be too ugly or they will just be laughed at for their perceived lack of sexual attractiveness -- think Mary Beard) and uniform and appearance codes and their public enforcement contribute (1) to the assumptions about appearance and deportment of girls, and to the rewarding of polite and conformist behaviour that will get women and girls nowhere, both so detrimental to girls and women, and (2) to the assumption that it is perfectly ok to publicly judge women's and girls' appearance and expect them to take note and conform to expectations. Accepting that girls can express femininity or an individual sense of style in the school environment goes a long way towards erasing the concept of the blonde bimbo vs ugly nerd divide.

Would it be unthinkable for uniform in a coed school to consist of a pink shirt or blouse, with a tie and blazer in another shade of pink, and trousers or skirt in paisley featuring splashes of pink, or with pink flowers, or a plaid dominated by shades of pink? How many schools is anyone here aware of where pinks or soft purples dominate the uniform colours, where floral motifs are worn by both boys and girls or even permitted to girls? Where clothing is concerned, the default setting in schools is a masculine style and masculine colours, as they are normally perceived. The message is that girls have to check their feminine side at the door, that femininity and seriousness about school cannot coexist. This is a message that boys take up and run with, unfortunately.

Article about Mary Beard, TV appearances, and misogyny that illustrates what we are really doing when we preside over an environment in which policing the appearance of girls, either public or private, is acceptable.

'At Cambridge, the inequities of gender began to dawn on Beard. “Most of the people who taught us in the faculty were blokes,” she says. “There were only twelve per cent women among the students, and you thought, Actually, there is an issue here. You go into a dining hall of a men’s college, and everybody’s portrait was a bloke. Well, perhaps some female founder back in 1512, some lady who gave the cash—and everyone else was a bloke. For the first time I saw that, somehow, I was there as sort of a favor.” ...'

'...The real issue, [Beard suggests] is not merely guaranteeing a woman’s right to speak; it is being aware of the prejudices that we bring to the way we hear her.'

wannabestressfree · 08/01/2016 06:03

That was a really interesting and thought provoking post math....

Youarentkiddingme · 08/01/2016 06:49

Math yiur posts are extremely thought provoking. I posted many pages back that I felt it ridiculous my friends DD was told her hair having a lighter colour at the end wasn't allowed because it "wasn't blended in enough".
You've managed to out into words exactly what my thought process about it was.

Also everything about the unflattering shape and a "mans" suit in girls and no make up etc.

The same school as the dyed ends will allowed girls outside of year 11 wear simple make up/ foundation if they ask special permission and after a meeting with the HoY it is agreed. So you have girls with acne, blemishes etc having to draw attention to parts of their face they are unhappy with and have someone else decide for them if they can cover it up or not - I find it outrageous.

BoneyBackJefferson · 08/01/2016 06:58

LordBrightside
"I have had my views wilfully misrepresented, accused of being a keyboard warrior, a poor parent etc etc. You weren't worried about people playing the man rather than the ball then."

Your "wilfully misrepresented" is posters having an opinion that differs from you, or an better understanding of the consequences of your actions than you.

I called you a "keyboard warrior" because that is what you (at the moment) are, your child is 2.5 what you have posted as 'I would do' is hypothetical hyperbole.

I can't remember anyone posting that you where a poor parent (I could be wrong, the thread is getting long) they have definitely called you "that parent" and have have quite proudly confirmed that you are.

Your debating style seems to be the same as your attitude towards schools and education in that it can only be on your terms. Unless you Home ed that will never happen.

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 07:28

another good post math

I'm still waiting to hear why red lipstick isn't ok.

so it's not distraction?

it can't be "inappropriate" because it's lipstick on a child. and surely you don't see anything other than lipstick on a child.

other lipstick is apparently ok.

so why? when all lipstick.os designed fir the sake purpose, why is one colour ok and another not.go on, give the real reason.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 07:48

Actually math girls tend to be equally disruptive in a class - if not more so at times. Luckily a teacher with good classroom management and skills can combat this. There is no dumbing down of questions based on gender in my class - I differentiate by ability.
My comment on 'dirty doctors' etc reflects on the fact that it is men who have objectifies women in this way - I don't think many people look at a young girl in uniform and immediately think 'sexy school girl'.
As I have said throughout this most pupils prefer a uniform, teachers uphold rules and I like a uniform when I teach.
Oh and red lipstick - not 'slut shaming' to ask an 11 year old to remove - the policy is subtle. Red is not subtle

splendide · 08/01/2016 07:48

Math you've articulated really well the reason I feel uncomfortable about schools getting so creepily interested in girls' appearances.

For what it's worth I'm a lawyer and so definitely count as a professional and I'm wearing a shortish blue dress with muticoloured spots, some plastic jewellery, leather high tops and (THE HORROR!) some red lipstick. The idea that wearing a shapeless boxy mans jacket and a tie and no makeup is preperation for the workplace is absurd.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 07:50

Giles read my posts I have answered the question many times - you are trying to make me out to be some sort of draconian woman hater - the policy is subtle. Red is not subtle and therefore asked to be removed. And I really don't think it a good look for an 11 year old. Sorry, my opinion - flame me for it ... Oh wait a minute ....

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 07:51

Splendid / you are an adult not bound by the rules of a school - I have said many times I have no problem with red lipstick.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 07:52

And please do not suggest I am creepily interested - you a a lawyer ffs.

FelicityFunknickle · 08/01/2016 07:56

Another excellent post from math
Thank you. Great reading.
I find I agree wholeheartedly with you here.

wannabestressfree · 08/01/2016 07:56

Its all about the subtle..... It is at our school too. Like the girls who fake tan.... Light is fine, dipped in culpronol not so much.
With regard to behaviour its normally the girls who cause the problems rather than the lads both in the classroom and out.

splendide · 08/01/2016 08:00

I wasn't suggesting you had a sexual interest if that's what you're worried about. I think society/ authority as represented in this discussion by schools get very excised about girls' appearances and I do think it's creepy. It makes my skin crawl to remember us lining up at schools so our skirt length could be examined and judged.

FelicityFunknickle · 08/01/2016 08:01

The lack of insight here is making me dizzy

LordBrightside · 08/01/2016 08:02

"as he was an authority figure you should have treated him with respect as you would a bank manager or a mechanic" Shock

What alternate reality is this? Have I stepped into an episode of the twilight zone?

FelicityFunknickle · 08/01/2016 08:03

Yes splendide same here

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 08:04

But you haven't said why it needs to be subtle. other than its what the policy is.

but why is the policy so?

what reason behind making that a rule is there.

FelicityFunknickle · 08/01/2016 08:04

Good grief

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 08:05

It's basically "because I said so"

but why?

what possible harm is it doing?

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 08:07

What is red doing that "subtle" isn't?

teacherwith2kids · 08/01/2016 08:08

And I shall say again - when you can guarantee that a member of the public's first reaction when seeing a group of children with brightly-coloured hair, very highly coloured thick makeup and uniform worn in all manner of different ways is 'they must go to a really excellent school where the classrooms are orderly and my child will thrive in a well-discplined environment', schools will stop worrying about uniform and appearance.

Because members iof the public don't come into the classroom to see what is going on in there, they use lots of 'proxy meausrures' to gain an impression of the school.

Currently, a very prevalent and powerful one is uniform and appearance. If those who object to schools policing uniform can change that link in the public mind, then schools and teachers will be VERY happy to stop creating and upholding uniform rules.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread