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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not get schools issue with dyed hair?

1003 replies

fitforflighting · 06/01/2016 13:29

I suspect I may get flamed for this but I genuinely do not get it.
They have a rule against earrings including sleepers. That I get especially with younger children or in sports were children can end up getting them at worst ripped out.

I can kind of even get extreme haircuts with big shaved stars or strange styles that look unprofessional and might not be allowed by adults in a professional work place.

But this week and last term several of senior age children who had dyed hair brown/red/dark purple etc were sent home from school to re dye or put in isolation by teachers with errr brown/red/purple dyed hair! One of the children's teacher has bright purple hair. It does not make her any less of a English teacher or lesson her professionalism in school I don't reckon so what is the problem for teens?

OP posts:
pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 16:24

And again felicity you misquote me as you post only the quote and it the context of the four or five quotes it came in.
I am beginning to think that is your only tactic. To be obtuse.

teacherwith2kids · 09/01/2016 16:25

Read back a little to the toilet breaks thing
"Might a teacher need to leave the class to pee? If not, why does it matter that you are not permitted?"

As I work in primary, I stay in the same classroom all day and there are no breaks between lessons. I am required tio be in the classroom while the pupils are. At least one day a week i am on duty before school and at break - which means I am not allowed to go to the toilet between 8.25 am and 12.20pm, because it risks leaving children, who i am responsible for, unattended.

Luckily I have the bladder of a camel, and simply don't drink anything after 7 am breakfast on those days... but I would LIKE to be permitted to go to the toilet at some point within that time, if there was any practical way at all to organise it...

teacherwith2kids · 09/01/2016 16:29

(The irony is that I have an 'ask and you may go' policy for the vast majority of my class - the child who always asks when they get to a hard question gets my help with the question instead, as that is what they really need, and the two who always request at the same time are only allowed one at a time. But generally....)

BoneyBackJefferson · 09/01/2016 17:52

Felicity

The difference about those that "know" and those that "think" that they know is highlighted ( in an extreme fshion) by LordBS who thinks that there will be no repercussions if he enters a school unescorted/without permission, and that he can stand outside a school and berate teachers for not wearing what he thinks are the correct clothes again without repercussions.

mathanxiety · 09/01/2016 19:04

I went to a tough school, Piece. It's been a while now, but I know what teachers even back then put up with, in prefab classrooms situated in a sea of mud.

I would not call my DCs' high school tough by American standards, but there are police officers in the school all day every day, security guards, the occasional arrest for drug selling or weapons infractions, a very busy creche for students' babies and toddlers, a fleet of social workers on staff, a whole floor dedicated to students whose psychiatric and/or emotional problems mean they can't be mainstreamed, the occasional fight especially at the latest of three lunchtimes, an extremely wide range of income and expectation and experience of the education system represented in the intake, and yet the school remains committed to a disciplinary approach whose goal is the creation of a strong school spirit and getting the best out of everyone academically and in every other way, with considerable financial resources allocated to enable administrators and deans to meet students where they are, not push square pegs into round holes, or focus on externals. The aim is to see engaged and responsible students.

The American gpa system and refusal to acknowledge a class structure helps enormously to keep students focused and optimistic. Time wasting in the loo will have immediate consequences if it is affecting your work. If it isn't affecting your work, then no problem. No magical solutions along the lines of uniform are considered when students seem to remain alienated. Students with problems are flagged and there is a well thought out and continually tweaked system to deal with them.

How is 'DM sad face' not an attempt to mock?

Lurker Math, you asked why the policy was "subtle" make up. Well I'll repeat what I said earlier, you can either ban it totally which produces unsatisfactory results, or you don't have any rules regarding make up which leads to students coming to school with a full face of make up which has taken an age to put on. As we all know maintaining a full face of make up takes time, so during the day and can distract the girls from learning because they're re-applying their lippy in class, or taking 10 minutes in the bathrooms between each lesson touch it up. Again not ideal, so schools go for "subtle" which is a good compromise.

'Subtle' can mean a fresh faced 'unmade-up' look or it can refer to quantity of makeup or colour scheme or emphasis. It takes quite a lot of time to put on 'subtle' makeup if 'flawless-fresh faced' is the desired look, but no matter what the end result is, it is actually no business of the school what students are using their own time for outside of school hours as long as it isn't cyber bullying. I personally know teens who would happily stand in the shower until the water ran cold morning after morning. While extremely annoying to others who want to use the bathroom, this is no business of the school unless showering keeps them late, and if this is an issue they will soon hear about it and have to think about their priorities.

'Subtle' expresses a value judgement about women's appearance no matter what way you cut it. The value judgement is composed of elements of misogyny and elements of class discrimination. As I said before, the idea behind it is that only slappers trowel on their makeup. You are absolutely right to insist the public perception of the school is important in Britain.

It is shameful that so many unexamined prejudices are allowed to stand, to the immense detriment of the educational process and to those at its mercy. Are parents put off by the impression that there are 'too many' black students in a school, or 'too many' Asian students, or 'too many' who speak Polish or have Irish names or are Travellers, and is it ok to pander to that? Because the end result of that would be racial and ethnic segregation and a divided society along income and ethnic lines, and the continued relevance of the word 'slapper' and other sexist, classist and generally derogatory terms for women.

Oh wait.

The assumption that no ban on makeup and no regulation or code will automatically lead to students arriving with full warpaint daily is one that should be examined. My DCs attend a school with no regulation about makeup and it most certainly does not lead to that.

Yes, girls and boys spend time in the bathrooms at lunchtime and during the four minute passing period between classes if they can squeeze in a bathroom visit touching up whatever they do wear, or their hair, or whatever, but again unless this is making them late to class what they do in the bathroom is nobody's business but their own unless they are hurting other students in there. All tardiness to class is recorded by swiping IDs through hand held devices operated by security guards in each corridor, and 12 tardies in a semester results in a fail for the class. You can only enter class late if you have received a hall pass, with hall passes only issued by the nurse, the counsellors, the attendance office, the deans and the previous period teacher.

How is it distracting from learning to have to touch up your makeup, and is it more distracting than dealing with knickers that give you a wedgie or a blazer that irritates your neck or a tie that keeps you too hot or a red jumper that makes your red haired complexion look bloody awful all day every day, or acne that you can't cover up?

The problem is not that girls are so distracted by their makeup that they forget about school. It is that girls feel alienated from the business and purpose of school and pessimistic about their future and school's role in improving their opportunities, in tandem with too much influence from a surrounding culture that tells them their only value lies in their physical appearance, and in addition there is often a problem with bullying in schools where all the girls feel they must appear made up.

When schools' solution to the issue of girls disengaging from school focuses on their appearance then the girls should be forgiven for supposing that indeed their appearance really is the most important thing about them. Schools that focus on appearance are choosing to deal with only the surface of the problem, and not surprisingly the problem of disengagement is not going away.

Many parents actually rely on school rules to help them with their teeangers and like them: "You can't pierce your lip becasuse the school won't allow you to be in class with it"...

...which is lazy parenting, and setting up the school as The Enemy works against the expectation that students become enthusiastic participants in the process they are asked to take part in. (OTOH seeing my DCs off to a school every morning where individuality is honoured makes the people who really matter in a school the students feel they have a stake in it, feel they belong, feel the school community welcomes them and their accent, their contribution, their effort, and believe it or not this contributes to healthy academic achievement.)

"Get up now or you'll be late and the school will give you a detention" etc etc. Of course all of you on MN are perfect parents and your DC are perfect children who are mature and make balanced decisions but in the real world the school rules help parents to get their children to toe a line that they would like. Even the make up thing can be part of this, you can get your daughter out of the door on time because she isn't in the bathroom for an hour making sure she looks immaculate, or she actually remembers to pack all of the correct books for the day because she isn't making the make up a priority because you can only wear a minimum amount.

Or you can expect your student to get with the programme because ultimately it is their report card and attendance record that is at stake and they are responsible for prioritising and time management.

Or the school can handle lateness in a detached, impersonal way -- record, accumulate data, dish out consequences, but try to get to the bottom of the problem at the same time.

Above all a school can recognise that there are more reasons than just makeup application that cause students to be late for school. Students are up too late, students have to get themselves up and out because parents are dysfunctional or homes are chaotic, books and materials are lost because nobody at home cares enough to provide a spot for them.

Is there actual data to support the proposition that it is makeup application that causes girls or boys to be late? Or is this an assumption that arises from unexamined prejudice about makeup and empty headedness that is composed of all sorts of assumptions about class and femininity and female brains, etc?

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 19:27

Math all of these things you suffer are in place in the majority of schools. This is what the teachers have been trying to say. We do deal with behaviour, lates etc.

What I don't understand in you post is why you thing these young people, girls in particular, are so pessimistic about their futures .... Very very few of the pupils I deal with are this down - and I working a school not dissimilar to yours .... At every level our pupils strive to do their best and we have good communication with ex pupils and engage in their successes too.

I don't know why you are so down on the abilities of young girls to rise above the circumstances of their birth.

Uniform is part of the UK school system in the majority. I am sure that there are rules at your dcs school - no difference to follow them in jeans or uniform - the rules of that school will be enforced.

Personally jeans and a school logo sweatshirt would suit me - but that is not the uniform the pupils at my school chose so I uphold the rules that go with that uniform.

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 19:28

Suffer? Say!

mathanxiety · 09/01/2016 19:37

So you are saying that uniform is not needed at all, and that Lurker's point is irrelevant?

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 19:37

Oh and dm sad face was said tongue in cheek as previous posters had been using this to tell parents that they should go to the daily mail ... Both another poster and I said that we totally disagreed with the article.

mathanxiety · 09/01/2016 19:41

You don't have to appear 'down' to underachieve or to question your ability.

Teens who shoot themselves in the foot (don't put forth their best effort, focus on something other than school) are disengaged and have no confidence in school's potential to make a positive difference in their lives.

mathanxiety · 09/01/2016 19:45

"pieceofpurplesky Fri 08-Jan-16 23:15:32
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/schoolgirls-claim-teachers-enforcing-make-10701146
Make up and school - complete with sad face"

This doesn't look like anything but endorsement of the 'sad face' mockery. A qualifying comment right there in the post might have helped dispel doubt. So would not using the phrase 'sad face', or reading the article before making assumptions about what it contained.

ilovesooty · 09/01/2016 19:52

I read the article. If the senior management have decided on that course of action the teachers will have had to comply whatever their views on the matter.

mathanxiety · 09/01/2016 19:58

That sounds like a most unfortunate style of management.

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 20:10

Math again the comment was in regards to a previous poster saying about the daily mail sad faces and make up - and was followed by me quite shortly by me quantifying that the article was wrong.

But go ahead, keep misrepresenting me ...

The article is shocking in reality but again staff are given no option - which has been my stance since first post

ilovesooty · 09/01/2016 20:13

math from my experience it was a lot worse than unfortunate but if you're in that kind of school with that kind of management you really can't rock the boat. I tried so I know what the consequences can be.

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 20:22

Exactly sooty.

But the. It is the same in any job. Rules are rules. I am glad our kids like their uniform and mostly comply with make up.

I think the discipline works anywhere if you get the right balance.

mathanxiety · 09/01/2016 20:48

So what is the role of uniform in the balance?

RiverTam · 09/01/2016 20:51

I think that schools can decide in this country to ditch uniform if they truly believe that it is if no benefit to the children. We saw three non-uniform primaries when we were looking for DD, two rated 'good' and one rated 'outstanding', all are heavily over-subscribed ( the outstanding one has had a furthest distance offered of 300 metres in some years). Clearly parents have not been put off and clearly the schools have decided to ignore the DfE and the prevailing English view on this matter. These schools are all pretty diverse (inner London). They are thriving.

Very few parents want uniform introduced in DD's year group (and I know of only one child who has requested to wear uniform (there's a voluntary uniform which I would say less than 5% wear on a regular basis)). Those that want it want it not because they think their DC will do better or it's more egalitarian or any of the reasons that have been trotted out, it's to make life easier for them, the parents. Who are so unimaginative that it doesn't even occur to them to get their DC to select their clothes the night before. Well, I'm buggered if that view is going to prevail. I completely agree that to cast school as the big bad wolf in parental disputes about appearance is an awful idea.

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 21:05

Math uniform is what is decided to be worn in the majority of school in the UK. In my school it works - lots of kids from very deprived backgrounds and some from very wealthy (as we get excellent results!). Uniform works here. Parents want it, kids want it, staff enforce it.

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 21:13

River -
But what if your DC only had one other set of clothes? If your mother or father are never around? What if the night before you are hanging on the street because mum won't let you in is 'entertaining' or dad is using you to run his drugs around? What if in the morning you have to get up at 6 as you are the main carer for your mum and have to get the other three kids ready for school? What if you don't have a washing machine and school know about this and give you clean Blazers and shirts?
All of these are examples I dealt with as a role as a pastoral lead. I no longer do that role but all of these happen.

Uniform is really good to help these kids.

teacherwith2kids · 09/01/2016 21:50

Piece, agreed. Uniform is also really good, IME in a primary with a very large number of in-year arrivals (Traveller, mainly - the largest number enrolled in a single day raised the size of the school by 1/8th).

With young children - and I know it wouldn't work for older ones necessarily - putting on the school sweatshirt meant a new child was 'one of us'. We kept a very large box of secondhand sweatshirts in the office - the traveller site also had many in circulation - and a new arrival could be invisible amongst their cohort immediately.

Some will say that the same would happen at a non-uniform school, where everyone would be wearing their own clothes and no-one would care. IME, a) the normal 'home' clothing of the different groups within the school (very interesting rural catchment) was very different and b) every non-uniform school I know of develops a 'school norm' - many here have posted about it, saying 'oh, they wear converse and jeans and sweaters', but that is not what every child on the street wears, so it is in a sense a 'group imposed dress code. Our new arrivals would have not been in a position to conform to such a norm as quickly as they could don a school sweatshirt, and we would not have been able to provide it free to every child who walked through the door on a given day.

And yes, there were children we washed and dressed every day in clean uniform, in the same way that giving pupils breakfast and keeping toothbrushes and toothpaste near the children's cloakroom was a normal part of life.

RiverTam · 09/01/2016 21:58

Maybe that is the case for some kids at DD's school. And they can wear uniform if they want. Be it just a sweatshirt or the full shebang. It's up to that family to choose what's best for them.

But I could give you a load of 'what if's' to prove the point the other way - if DD spills her breakfast down her last clean skirt and tights - stick her in some leggings, or a frock. Don't waste money on crap school shoes that don't last - they can wear anything. If she has a growth spurt at a time of year when shops are low on uniform and I can't get to one anyway or don't have the cash - no bother, we can make something we have work. Etc etc etc.

There are certainly deprived kids at DD's school. And there are posh kids for sure. My experience has been that no-one gives a fuck about clothing. kids don't comment, parents don't comment. Some are in branded trainers, some are in hand-me-downs (that's DD half the time). From what I've seen in the playground it's mainly jeans and t shirts.

It's. Not. An. Issue.

RiverTam · 09/01/2016 22:05

Xpost with teacher, of course they're 'one is us' straight off. And there are a lot of non-British kids, including one new boy in DD's class this term (week!), she's chatting away about him wanting to be friends (he's chummed up already with one of her best pals, also not British), telling me words he's taught her already in his language - honestly, I think you're just making stuff up.

teacherwith2kids · 09/01/2016 22:08

"honestly, I think you're just making stuff up"

Genuinely, I am not. But I appreciate that it was a very specific school, in very specific circumstances. It wouldn't apply, for example, in my current school to the same extent.

pieceofpurplesky · 09/01/2016 22:20

And I am not making things up either. We have a lot of efl kids here too - asylum seekers, refugees etc. They are donated a uniform as some arrive with nothing but the clothes they have on.

If you think we are making things up you need to go see what is actually happening in schools other than your dcs.

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