To think i should be allowed to sleep!!

[Pancake2015]

Every single night my 5 and 7 year old are waking up between 2-3am. They dont go back to sleep and as im trying to i keep hearing them chat and whispering. I get increasingly frustrated as the nights go on. Now ive put one in my bed and im downstairs, so frustrated as im back to the bastard settee. I will not sleep with as they would love that and no doubt do it all the more. I wish i could stand not putting one in to my bed altogether, but after trying for two weeks and seeing me snapping at 3am and shouting, i realised it wasnt acceptable for my neighbours to also be forced awake by all of us!

Aibu to think a 5 and 7 year old should be able to sleep right through the night and i should be able to get at least 1 night a week to sleep properly before having to deal with the following day?
My patience has well and truly gone.

My 5 year old goes to bed between 7:15-7:45 and my 7 year old between 8:30-8:45 depending on how quickly 5yo falls asleep.
They did go at a reasonable time together but that ended up where they were awake until 12am messing about and again, i couldnt sleep.
I now find i struggle to go to sleep knowing theyre going to wake up. Then my eyes cant take anymore, i start dozing and then there is crash bang wallop and theyre up!!

Please don't tell them the neighbours will call the Police .

Tell them their behaviour is NOT ON, they are very naughty to talk and wake you up in the night and it needs to STOP and they need to sleep at night, otherwise they will be "too tired" to do anything else at all other than go to school.
No play dates/ no activities that week.
Remind them why when they are sad they cant go to Xs house and stand firm.

can you talk to the older one and ask him/her who is waking who?
If you had some idea of who is waking first that may help you find a tactic to deal with it.

I agree that 5 and 7 they are old to understand that you have to lie quietly in bed until you fall asleep again.

Can't see why giving them a book/night light is a horrible thing to do. At least it gives them distraction to making noise.

cotto

Whether you agree or not that explaining to kids that noise in the night can cause neighbours to call the police, 5 and 7 is old enough to appreciate it is a real possibility especially if you live in a flat or attached home. I think my original post was incorrect to suggest its a white lie.

If someone is awakened by a neighbour shouting at their kids, they can complain to the police -it is their right- and to council who will then be required to report it to social services.

Don't want to make the OP feel guilty for a little shouting, but it is definitely something she'll want to stop doing.

My kids read by torchlight if they wake up. They are usually only awake 30 minutes or so and then nod off.

Cotto, I sometimes reward to get into a good habit and then stop the reward when the habit is there. For eg. ds2 is terrible at wiping his nose (he's 7!). No amount of nagging or wiping it for him, telling him off etc. worked. I said he could have 20p at the end of the day if I didn't have to tell him once. First day, nearly managed, but didn't. Second day he did it. Third day he did and asked for the 20p and I said he couldn't have it everyday, it was just to motivate him to get into the good habit, I don't pay him to wipe his bum! He accepted that. Now he is realising when he needs to wipe his nose because he was so vigilant for a couple of days.

Any possibility of splitting them up to see which one is waking up / when? Could you send one to granny's or to a friend on Friday night? To see how the other one gets on at home. Then switch round next week.

Are they being woken by the heating coming on / dustbin lorry / pets disturbing them / (talking/whirring/updating) toys making a noise / neighbour going to work v. early?

My friend's daughter needed very little sleep and from age 4 they could reason with her and give her quiet things to do in her room until she could hear someone else getting up.

I feel for you, I'm totally rubbish without enough sleep. My son woke at 4am every night for a year, I coped by going to bed at the same time as him (8pm) to catch up on my own sleep. - If you're woken at 3 and you've been asleep for 6 hours already it doesn't feel quite as bad.
Good luck.

But disappointed - this sort of night waking is not normal, we are not 'hard wired' to wake up at 2am and remain awake until6am- the article you mentioned references waking up briefly after every 90min sleep cycle and then going back to sleep without noticing the slight wake up. So the article you mentioned is irrelevant and dismissing this behaviour as normal is completely unhelpful. Children of 5 and 7 need their sleep and cannot be waking up every night at 2 am for hours on end as this will have a massive impact on their health, their mental concentration, their ability to cope at school, their emotional wellbeing.

Crikey I missed that the OP is shouting so much she is waking the neighbours
This is not on OP, your DC need a stern talking too- fuck reward charts !

Mine would be marched to and from school, no tv, no treats, no computer time ,no rewards, no play dates/parties and a daily lecture on consequences if they dared to continue this.
They would get the message - shall I come over

cotto
OP - never said she is definitely waking up neighbors.

Ok I was replying to what you said - now even more confused. Just lay down boundaries and keep the Police out of it!

Not read TFT but I used ear plugs. Tell them you are putting them in and if there is a drama they need to come and physically wake you.

Otherwise audiobooks on all night so at least they have something to listen to.

I dont know if i am waking the neighbours up. I worry myself sick that one of us are or are going to.
If i have said that, i am sorry. I still have had no sleep and have just finished work.

It is my 7 year old who is waking my 5 year old.
Tell me i am stubborn, but i dont want to switch my routine for something i believe should be possible to rectify with a talking to and an understanding from them for their age.
If i put one into my room, then i am creating further problems. This problem needs to be challeneged. I can see how i should be doing it, but running on little to no sleep since before christmas is difficult.

I thought my stern talk at the beginning would have fixed this, but obviously not and a habit has formed to which i am now finding myself too exhausted to deal with.

I will get there. It is just a hard battle, and feeling ten times harder because im so tired.
Frustrating for their ages, too.
I have no problems at all - none what so ever - if they genuinely wake up and are struggling to fall back off.
I do have a problem with waking others up just because theyre awake, including each other.
If they both woke up and talked quietly for a little before falling bsck to sleep, again, i have no problem with that. I understand people do wake during the night and sometimes struggle to fall back to sleep.
I know that my 7yo at least knows that jumping off of the beds, or running across the landing (which every floorboard sounds like a bang) is completely unacceptable, especially when people are clearly asleep.
The banging most definitely will echo through to next door.
I worry myself sick about complaints, which thankfully i am yet to receive. I would absolutely hate living next door to me, with how things have been recently.

This waking up in the night is affectibg them. They have bags under their eyes. They are moody and irritable just as i am. Even though they are sleeping, and i am not - they are probably feeling just as bad as i am because they need more sleep than i do for their age, dont they? Or am i mistaken? Im not sure if ive read that or if in making it up. Either way, continuous disturbed sleep is not healthy for anyone.

Please excuse any spelling mistakes or if ive missed anything.

You sure about that, Scrumpy? Because scientists aren't.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201511/there-may-be-better-way-sleep

My DD used to wake for exactly 2 hours every night from a few weeks old to about 2.5. Could set your watch by her. It's not so long ago we slept in caves (in one room, without electric lights) and we haven't evolved that far biologically since then. No way we're we sleeping for 8-12 hours straight - we'd have been eaten by wild animals if we were. More and more evidence suggests that there's no such thing as normal sleep, and it's basically societal pressure (which our biology doesn't respond to). Hence problems.

If we lived in spain we'd expect much less sleep at night and a siesta in the afternoon. Wonder why that's never died out? It suits our biology better than trying to have all of our sleep in one hit.

Now the OP has 2 separate issues - the waking, which I'd say was biologically completely normal, and the 2 kids messing around keeping each other up. The second bit is much easier to change.

Apologies it was me who thought from the thread and comments that you were waking the neighbours.

Right so the problem is the 7 year old.
Get them on their own and talk in the sternest Icy tones about their behaviour.
They will go to bed and stay there, this week there will be no tv, no treats ,play dates or activities until this STOPS.
What do they say in return OP?- what is the 7 year olds reaction ?
Most DC want to please their parents at this age.

Quite frankly you are a saint- I would go ballistic if mine jumped off bed in the middle of the night.

Is it the same time every night? Is something waking your 7yo? Maybe an alarm outside or a train, something new that didn't used to be a problem?

Has she said why she's waking her sister? Could it be bad dreams that is waking her, hence wanting to wake someone else for comfort?

I think getting to the bottom of why she's started waking up around the same time every night is going to be key to solve it.

I also don't see the issue with audiobook or headphones for music. One of mine is a 5.15am waker regardless of bedtime. Audiobooks or music on headphones is a good way of preventing them getting fidgety and disturbing other people and also helps pass the time without frustration/boredom. It's less stimulating than an awake sibling so could lessen the awake time.

Mine would be marched to and from school, no tv, no treats, no computer time ,no rewards, no play dates/parties and a daily lecture on consequences if they dared to continue this.

I agree with Cotto. Home from school, tea, homework/reading or whatever they have to do, then bed, with no noise or coming out of their room again until morning, except for legitimate reasons such as going to the toilet. Repeat as necessary.

My 7 year old tells me its wrong and not a kind thing to wake people up from their sleep for nothing. He listens when i tell him, they both do, that it needs to stop. Yet it continues to happen. My 5yo tells me its not him, and my 7yo doesnt appear to be bothered. I get the impression he is just saying what i want to hear.

But i wonder what has brought this about, as i mentioned we had no issues before.

No matter what scientific studies have been done, or siestas in spain not dying out id love to have a siesta, daily...the fact is, my son was able to have a full nights sleep. Now he is not. He is disturbing my 5yo who can and more than likely wants/needs a full nights sleep as that is what he is used to. I wish i understood why

Shouting is me going ballistic. I cried leaving the school today being completely fed up and sleep deprived. The shame.

More and more evidence suggests that there's no such thing as normal sleep, and it's basically societal pressure (which our biology doesn't respond to). Hence problems

This is why we have such issues with dD. She has autism and doesn't respond to societal pressure or indeed understand it so is up half the night whereas we are working and need our sleep.

Some great suggestions here OP I hope they work for you. Sadly none of them would work on my DD

Thanks Harriet
I only had to do this once but my god it worked.
Don't be afraid to be the parent- your DC need boundaries.

Maybe I should move to Spain :)