To think selfishness is inherently bred into men?

[Notimefortossers]

Literally never met a man that didn't put himself first. Give me some hope MN'ers . . . there are unselfish men out there . . . right?

Talking of being brainwashed, I think some women have been brainwashed by their own childhood experiences (selfish fathers and mothers who enable it) into thinking that's what all men are like and then they go and repeat the same mistakes with their own choice of partner.

I can think of loads of examples of my DH putting me and DSs needs first.

But he's not a martyr about it, he does it automatically. And if DS acts selfishly, which he's prone to like most bloody teenagers of both genders he gets a right earful from DP. I think it's probably one of his pet hates, along with stinginess.

I am far more selfish than my DH. He doesn't have a selfish bone in his body, I have lots. I try not to, but I am who I am.

I do my best to put other people first and help as many people as I can. I definitely put DP before myself.

It makes me wonder if there is an innate aspect to being / not being selfish. DP is an only child so you'd think he would be self centred .... strange

If his always been this way then why have you not addressed it before?

I address each incidence on an individual basis. Like tonight, as soon as the DC were out of earshot, I said something. He will sometimes accept fault, sometimes not, sometimes fall silent, but it never leads to an overall modification of his behaviour. Maybe I should say 'Could you do something about your selfishness please, it really pisses me off'? Though I wonder if there's anything he can even do about it. I was probably more understanding in earlier years, because he was alone for a long time before we met, but we've now been together longer than he was alone for and I think it's about time he got a clue

I'm a man by the way.

He seemed to be genuinely shocked when I said that most people love their partners/families more than themsleves and admitted that he only really thought about himself and how things affect him ( and didn't really mind if it made his loved ones unhappy ) and insisted I was wrong and everyone loved themselves best and only cared about their own happiness.

I can see why you would be upset at him not caring how things affected you and not worrying if something made you unhappy but I don't at all think that people love their partners more than themselves - nor do I think it a good thing if they do.

I was raised catholic and even then was taught to "love my neighbour as myself" not more than myself (although in fairness it was a therapist who pointed out to me that there wasn't a belief system in the word that required you to value yourself less than other people - being reared female certainly didn't send that message).

I do think society implicitly (maybe even explicitly) tells boys that it is ok to put their own needs first and tells girls that they are valued most when they are kind/generous/selfless etc. I do not think that boys and girls have traditionally been given the same message about their value - hence the amount of men who are comfortable putting their own needs first.

I do think society implicitly (maybe even explicitly) tells boys that it is ok to put their own needs first and tells girls that they are valued most when they are kind/generous/selfless etc. I do not think that boys and girls have traditionally been given the same message about their value - hence the amount of men who are comfortable putting their own needs first.

Absolutely agree. At the most basic level, this involves mums running around and doing everything for their husbands / children, who then absorb the message that women exist to wait on them hand and foot.

Just for the record, though, my DH is the least selfish person I know.

I don't actually believe that adults should love other adults more than themselves. Why on earth should they? That's not to say they shouldn't prioritise their SO, of course they should, in a successful partnership both will have equality in being prioritised. I only love my children more than myself and that's how should be. I think we are conditioned to believe that this ONE person within The Couple Relationship is supposed to meet ALL our needs, which very often leads to disappointment and conflict.

Talking of being brainwashed, I think some women have been brainwashed by their own childhood experiences (selfish fathers and mothers who enable it) into thinking that's what all men are like and then they go and repeat the same mistakes with their own choice of partner.

Yes this is what worries me. How do I stop this from happening to my son?

There's quite a few times I've put my own wishes above my kids, not their actual physical and emotional wants like heat, clothing, shelter, love but things like not signing them up for a class they want to go to because I just don't fancy schlepping myself and two other children half way across town on a Fri evening, not letting on a film they've been wanting to see is on at the cinema at the minute because Christ knows I don't want to sit through an animated version of a book I never liked/a tween romance. I can't stand baking, the whole shebang of it all, so I don't bake cakes for my kids, I don't bake with them, same with gardening.

I probably on the whole think my husband is less selfish/more selfless than me, so is my dad maybe. I've 3 daughters I've no issue at all with telling them that it's ok to put your own needs first sometimes - whether they have children or not.

Absolutely agree. At the most basic level, this involves mums running around and doing everything for their husbands / children, who then absorb the message that women exist to wait on them hand and foot.

Yes, this is exactly what I do and what I worry my children are absorbing. However, if I didn't do it, it wouldn't get done, so what's the alternative?

He will sometimes accept fault, sometimes not, sometimes fall silent, but it never leads to an overall modification of his behaviour.

This sounds as though he is fully comfortable in the knowledge that he doesn't have to modify his behaviour. He knows there are no real consequences to his behaviour. He does what he does and you kick off or get pissed off. You have a go and all goes back to normal.

It also sounds like you set the standard when you first met. You allowed him to behave this way so his bound to think it's normal. Almost like you created the monster (lighthearted comment ). IMO you have a real hard job on your hands Op. He hasn't changed, he was this way when you met, you allowed him to keep behaving this way with no consequences over the years and now (years later) you want him to become something he never was. I am sorry to say but that's going to be hard to do. This sounds as though I am blaming you. I am not. All I am saying is it sounds like he was selfish when you met, you accepted it but now you want him to change.

But back to your original question. No, not all men as selfish or bred selfish.

I agree nicki everyone needs to be a bit selfish but also a bit needy.

We, as humans, can't meet all our needs alone nor can one person meet them.

Some of us get this straight away and are happier for it. Others never understand this and have a tendency to be miserable or lonely. The most miserable people I know are the ones who expect their husbands to meet every need and the husbands who are convinced they don't need their wives (this is just in my experience) even though both are wrong.

I have to be selfish to some extent everyday to ensure I'm well enough to take care of my DS. This sometimes includes me making sure I've had something to drink, been to the loo or showered before I even make them breakfast. Some will consider that selfish others will see the logic in it. I know when I have to put myself first and when I can safely put others first. Some people just don't learn this.

My DH is the least selfish person I know but I think he is less insightful than I am so I might come across as more thoughtful IYSWIM.

Eg, I would offer visitors a cup of tea on arrival but it might not cross DH's mind, however if it did cross his mind or if they asked for a dink DH would happily offer them champagne along with their tea.

I have to be selfish to some extent everyday to ensure I'm well enough to take care of my DS

I think there's a difference between taking care of your own needs and putting those needs before the needs of others.

I take care of myself and every other fucker, but it it comes to the crunch and it's a choice between my DC's needs or my own, then they win. That is only true of them though - not every other fucker

Sadly PrincessMouse I think you are right

I think it's safe to say that men, in general, act more selfishly then women, in general. Not to say that all men are selfish, but that there is a tendency. The question is, is it something intrinsically male or is it social conditioning? It's certainly true that girls have been brought up to care/please and boys not so much.

But is there also something about male brains and lack of empathy? I'm curious as to whether there has ever been a study of this. If (and it's a big 'if') we think of autism as being extreme 'male brain', and one of the features of autism is lack of ability to see another person's perspective, than does that imply that men are inherently less empathetic and so more selfish? (I'm not having a go at people with autism by the way, my DS has traits and so have other family members.) My DH is selfish, but not in a 'fuck you I'll look after myself' way, more a self-absorbed insensitive to the needs of others way.

I agree with bettyberry. There should be a healthy balance of taking care of yourself and being taken care of by your significant other.

I think we're all capable of being selfish. But even nice men seem not to have this sense of obligation that women have. That is doing things we'd rather not do. Like visit somebody if we can't really be bothered but know we should. Not sure if this is a learned behaviour or inbred.

I a, really sorry you feel this way. It's crap...

The question is, is it something intrinsically male or is it social conditioning?

That's what I'm wondering. Should they be let off because actually they were just born this way?

I would say I'm more selfish than my husband. He is pretty unselfish and feels a lot of guilt.

I sometimes wish he was a bit more selfish.

Talking of being brainwashed, I think some women have been brainwashed by their own childhood experiences (selfish fathers and mothers who enable it) into thinking that's what all men are like and then they go and repeat the same mistakes with their own choice of partner.

I suppose everyone can only speak from their own experience and the men they've encountered, but I wasn't talking earlier about only my own relationships; but the partners of all my friends and relatives. The common theme in all of them is that the men are very selfish. Lots of women just put up with it because they wouldn't want to be alone, or can't afford to be alone.

Then I read on Mumsnet and other sites constant stories about the abuse from selfish men that women live with daily and I realise the problem is far wider than my circle of friends.

It makes me wonder if there is an innate aspect to being / not being selfish.

I think so, DH regularly puts other people before himself, and sometimes assumes our family unit are just an extension of him and so in discussions with his parents will put our family needs behind his parent's wants (I'm not talking about ill health or anything where it would be right and proper that he supports them) which drives me crazy, although he is now becoming aware that he shouldn't do that. It's not done out of malice though. His DB and DSis are more likely to consider their own needs rather than blindly putting other people first so I do think it's innate since it won't have been socialised into him at home.

My Mum is very much a female martyr and does not approve when I think about my own needs, e.g. we were staying in a hotel and the hotel manager had messed up the room allocation and wanted DH and I to move to another smaller room so he could accommodate someone else in the room we were already in (so we would have had to pack up all our stuff and move from the room we'd paid for). I refused (we weren't offered a discount or anything to sweeten the request, it was very strange), Mum thought I should have moved and was very disapproving. I don't see why I should put myself out to that extent for a stranger who has messed up. I'm not incredibly selfish though, I help out friends, family, workmates regularly but that's part of an ongoing relationship. And I'd do something for a stranger if it wasn't a lot of effort, e.g. I would always help someone pick up their shopping if they dropped it. I think generally I'm a nice person but have reasonable boundaries.

I don't think all men are selfish but I agree with PPs that they are socialised to have the self confidence to state where their boundaries are much more than women are.