to wonder what is wrong with Stella Creasy?

[RickRoll]

Stella Creasy said that Donald Trump is not welcome in the UK, as he is a 'hate preacher'. twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/674338732762374145

But when the US denies entry to someone, she's making a song and dance about how unjust it is.

She claims that there is a 'growing problem' of British Muslims being denied entry into the US.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/22/us-british-citizens-holiday-muslim-families

This is based on the case of a man, his brother (no women on this trip, apparently at least one of the wives is in Pakistan), and their seven children, whose aborted trip to the US has been presented as a 'trip to Disneyland'.

It appears that one of the 'children' (actually 18) had a Facebook page saying he is a supporter of Al Qaeda/Taliban/violent jihad.

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/23/21/2F9774C300000578-3371472-It_has_since_emerged_that_a_Facebook_page_pictured_claiming_link-m-2_1450905956811.jpg

While the brother was previously denied admission to Israel (as I understand it, being refused entry to another country is generally a huge red flag for travel).

Stella Creasy has also come out in support of Shiraz Maher, a self-described 'Muslim extremist'. twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/679644861415448577

While Ajmal Masroor is another complaining about not being allowed in
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/23/uk-imam-ajmal-masroor-us-business-visa-revoked-without-explanation

except that he has numerous links to extremist Islamist groups

hurryupharry.org/2014/05/02/is-ajmal-masroor-an-extremist/

AIBU to think that

(a) if you are going to complain about hate speech from the likes of Trump, you could keep your eyes open to hate speech from large numbers of people living in your own constituency

(b) to think that it's ludicrous to suggest that there is an active ban on Muslims entering the US, when thousands of Muslims enter the US every day, so coming out with a handful of examples of people denied entry doesn't really show anything

(c) that US immigration authorities do have the right to deny people entry based on specific intelligence (jihad support on social media, previous deportations, links to extremist organisations, and so on)

?

The US immigration authorities can deny entry to whoever they want. Only US citizens have a right to enter the country. They don't have to explain themselves to foreign politicians, even foreign prime ministers.

I agree and I thought there had to be more to this story as well. Yesterday it was being sold as 'this poor Muslim family, just minding their own business, wanting to go to Disneyland'. Yeah, right!

I initially thought it was quite odd that there weren't any women in the group, but on seeing the details the situation sounds quite reasonable. The reasons the mothers aren't going seem reasonable, the youngest child is eight, so able to perform his/her own personal care, they are going to visit a close relative, probably with a wife who can step in if necessary, and finally, the party may well include older girls who generally take on a more care-giving role than white British children of the same age.

They were granted visas and spent 9k on flights that they wont get back. I'd want answers too - dont tell me you wouldnt!

And Esta doesn't guarantee entry. The Esta is not visa. They were travelling under the visa waiver. Which is a form you fill in at the airport or on board

The Esta is so they can look into you before you travel, which they is what happened.

The likelihood is that they booke and paid for flights before they did the ESTA.

I would also bet they have a good idea why.

The brother shouldn't actually be trying to enter under the visa waiver.

If you are a uk citizen and have been arrested (even if never charged) you need to go to the US embassy as get a visa. Not travel under the visa waiver. Since the brother was detained and ejected from Israel, chances are visa waiver is not applicable.

If that's the case the brother was travelling illegally

"We will never know. Well, hopefully we will know, as hopefully the UK government will ask. Yes, any government can do whatever the hell it likes with regard to its own borders. But that doesn't mean that OUR government doesn't have a responsibility to protect the interests of British citizens abroad, so if somewhere looks like it is being discriminatory in its border control, and this is affecting UK citizens, then of course the UK government needs get some answers and if necessary exert some diplomatic pressure."

mellojello of course we won't know why the U.S. Declined to issue visas for these people. Do you honestly think the USA gives a fuck about discriminating against Muslims? Have you ever immigrated into the U.S.? Even with a valid visa it is an intimidating experience - it's not like here where border guards just wave most people through.

Whether or not you, I or anyone else agrees with USA immigration policies is immaterial to them. You say that our government has a responsibility to protect the interests of British citizens abroad. The thing is that the family denied entry to the U.S. are not abroad, they are here in the UK.

Apologies, they had been granted a visa waiver. If you had an esta visa waiver and paid 9k for flights, would you be ok with it being rescinded at the airport and losing all that money? Or is it ok as long as it happens to black people/gay people/jewish people/another minority group you are not a member of?
This is news because of trumps comments . If a frontrunner for president was not making openly anti muslim comments, people would be less suspicious of the motives

To add to the above, I would rather MPs spent their time doing something more useful than championing the rights of people refused entry to another country. It is up to each country to decide who it wants to let in, and wasting time whining to the U.S. authorities will change nothing.

There is no remedy available in law unless the family affected are willing to take the USA to court in the UK? Given that there are likely valid reasons why the USA doesn't want them, I doubt they will be doing that.

Apologies, they had been granted a visa waiver.

No they were granted a visa waiver. U.K. Citizens can travel to the US under the visa waiver scheme. You fill it in on board the plane.

But even if you are a il citizen there are exclusions such as being arrested, been to jail.

The visa waiver does not guarantee entry to the US. When you book flights to the US you are given all this information.

Or is it ok as long as it happens to black people/gay people/jewish people/another minority group you are not a member of?

Are you saying I am racist? If so, you are an idiot.

These rules apply to everybody.

My brother was arrested recently and must have a visa issues by the embassy to travel to the US. He wasn't charged and was innocent. But he still must get a visa. He is white.....but the rules still apply.

Listening to this yesterday Stella Creasey asked that David Cameron found out if the reason they were refused was simply that they are a large family of muslims or if there was another reason.

She did not say that we all should be told. She just stated the obvious: the UK government needs to ensure that its citizens are not being discriminated against purely on religious grounds.

If there is something in the family background then fair enough. But as they haven't been told - SOP in such cases - and have lost a lot of money they are, quite rightly, asking for a refund. The father sounded reasonable, said he understood that such things happen, but just wanted clarification on why they weren't being refunded, as the small print didn't seem to apply.

The leaping to conclusions here is indicative of why the question needs to be asked!

My BIL has dual citizenship (US/UK). He also has himself a drug possession conviction. As such he is keeping his head down for a few years before even attempting to go to the states, just in case. He's not well off enough to risk losing money on the flights if they decide to ban him for a while. In theory, as a citizen he should be fine. But his criminal record will stand for a few years so he's staying awake until it expires.

(Apparently that happens! It's on his record for a few years, then gone. Just like points on a licence.)

Staying away

It isnt racism, its 'not me' ism. So its ok if it doesnt affect 'you' (neutral you, ie most of us really). Its easy not to care if you dont think theres a reasonable chance you're not going to lose 9k in flights with no reason given because of discrimination

LOl at the idea our government needs to ensure its citizens aren't being discriminated against on religious grounds in matters which have nothing to do with the UK!

Imagine if the unthinkable happens and Trump is U.S. president? If he follows through on banning all Muslims immigrating into the U.S., what exactly is the UK going to do? Start WWIII??

It isnt racism, its 'not me' ism. So its ok if it doesnt affect 'you' (neutral you, ie most of us really). Its easy not to care if you dont think theres a reasonable chance you're not going to lose 9k in flights with no reason given because of discrimination

But these rules do effect me, personally.

Those are the rules and if you don't like them, don't go.

No uk citizen has the right to enter the US, it's a fact and applies to anyone.

Besides which the brother can not travel on the visa waiver. Because he has been detained and ejected from another country.

So he was trying to enter illegally.

At no point was anyone on this trip guaranteed entry.

I am from Northern Ireland and would never have my job listed as working for the IRA.

Alan Partridge does something similar.

Dh has also just reminded me that his mother will no longer travel to the US, because of these rules

She finds the uncertainty too stressful and the immigration, too stressful.

So yes it has affected me personally with 2 family members.

And thats still ok with you?? Seriously?? I am the opposite.

And thats still ok with you?? Seriously?? I am the opposite.

Is what ok? That a country chooses who to admit across it boarders?

Yes it is.

We dont go to usa either cos of the kids birthplace/too much hassle/we might get turned back. I think its a disgrace frankly

Funny, is it? So turn it round, AnthonyBlanche - what would the US do if someone treated their citizens with blithe contempt? Such stuff is what diplomacy is for.

A quick superior smirk on an anonymous website isn't going to fix anything. I hope Whitehall are capable of at least paying lip service to the game of diplomacy!

If it was criminal convictions, fine. But place of birth? Religion? Colour of skin? Nah, not acceptable

If it was criminal convictions, fine. But place of birth? Religion? Colour of skin? Nah, not acceptable

What proof do you have it was just down to their race or religion?

There are many other factors that have been reported. Including being kicked out of another country and trying to enter the US without the right paperwork.

Adding on some other flags, they were refused.

If you have proof they were rejected for being Muslim, that only that. The. Yes I would agree. But at the moment it doesn't look like that.

Do you think every Muslim who has tried to travel to US is turned away?

For all those who are up in arms, you need to lobby the USA, not your own government. Who a country chooses to admit it is up to it, and it alone. Would you like the USA to dictate who the UK must admit, or perhaps Saudi or Russia?

I doubt very much that the USA would care if the UK chose not to allow a U.S. Citizen into the UK.

OurBlanch I'm sure the UK will pay lip service to the idea of diplomacy if only to,satisfy those crying "racism, islamophobia, racism"

"the U.S. won't deny entry for no reason"

This is incredibly naive, because any process that isn't subject to the scrutiny of the public and/ or the courts risks making unreasonable or erroneous decisions.

There are numerous cases of Americans being put on "no fly" lists by mistake, or due to vague suspicions with little factual basis - in some cases US citizens are stuck abroad and can't return home as a result. With no judicial oversight, and no obligation to give reasons, it's next to impossible for people to clear their names.

Curiously (or not) many of these people have names that could be Middle Eastern.

I don't think this is anything to do with Trump though as it is a long-standing problem.

Thats the point of the thread really. Its ok for an mp to try to get to the bottom of it. If it wasnt for trump, and his 'ban all muslims from entering the usa' rhetoric, people would be less suspicious of the motives. Its quite likely to raise suspicions of religious profiling if the likely presidential candidate makes speeches like that. And if you think a country is within its rights to choose whoever enters, for whatever reason, then that is agreeing that banning people entering based on race/religion/sex/colour of eyes is ok